This morning I received an email from a born again reader thoughtfully chastising me for being a liberal.
“Why are you still fairly liberal since becoming a born again Christian?” he wrote. “I was once liberal, but when I was born again, I believe the Holy Spirit changed many of my views to those I think the norm for all who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.”
For the record, I’m neither liberal nor conservative. Some of my opinions are conservative. Some are liberal. Depends on the issue. Call me a Liberal Republican. Call me a Conservative Democrat. Better yet, don’t call me at all—especially if you want to talk politics.
But this guy’s point is interesting. Because most Christians are politically conservative, right? But I always figured that had as much to do with culture and regional history as anything else. At the moment I became a Christian, I didn’t think, “Sweet! Now I know how to vote!” But apparently this reader’s conversion experience did lead him to start voting differently than he had before he joined the faith.
Do you think voting Republican is a natural consequence of being Christian? If it is, then isn’t any Christian who votes as a liberal Democrat less of a Christian—less indwelt by the Holy Spirit—than one who votes as a conservative Republican? And if it’s not—if believing in Jesus has no natural or particular bearing on a person’s political affinities—then isn’t it wrong for conservatives to assert that they have any better or more comprehensive a grasp on Christ’s spirit than liberals do?
John, do you really want an answer to these questions?
Everyone has to vote their conscience. A political party does not convey any “extra Christianity”. It’s hilarious that anyone would think voting republican somehow makes a person a “better” Christian. We only have one judge, and He’s going to show Himself at the end of this age, which may or may not coincide with the American presidential election, who knows?
Have fun with this one!
John, I love you man. Reading your stuff is not easy. You seldom quote the bible and quite honestly don’t seem to know God or the scriptures very well. Most of your blog responders are either non-Christians or fringe/cult-type Christians. Your book “I’m OK you’re not” Is non-biblical and most would say is heresy. I haven’t said this to hurt you but to point out how MANY Christians view you. Hebrews 4:12 and Psalms 6:23 talk about rebuking and reproof. 1John 1:9 talks of correction.
First, I don’t think the Holy Spirit Votes. The Holy Spirit guides and convicts us.
Second, to vote for anyone that obviously ignores God’s commands is wrong.
Third, God is neither Republican nor Democrat.
We have a mandate to put righteous men and women into office or position of authority. Unfortunately most Democrats are non-Christians; not only are most Non-Christian they support clearly evil ideals. That doesn’t give Republicans a clean bill of health either. There are plenty of Republicans that are corrupt, drunk with power narcissists that only attend church to give the appearance of being “Christian.”
By and large Republicans have ideals that most resemble how God calls us to live. Democrats tend to call good evil and evil good. Democrats counterbalance this with policies that are “Poor-people” friendly. Charity is a biblical concept, ergo they must be more Christ-like, some will say. Most Christians find voting for Liberals unfathomable. Party-based voting is not always safe, it is often laziness. You shouldn’t vote for who your union, spouse, or pastor tells you to vote for. You should pray for guidance and conviction from the Holy Spirit, know what this person stands for and has stood for and compare it to what the Holy Scriptures command for us to expect from a leader.
Democrats have a general hostility to Bible-believing Christians. Abortion and Gay rights issues separate them from most Christians. Labeling pornography as art and free-speech. Removing prayer, the Ten Commandments and God from everything government related. Those are pretty big obstacles to overcome without getting into topics like pacifism, socialism, humanism and welfare. Does this mean that G-O-P is the favorite of G-O-D, nope, it doesn’t. It’s run be men, and men are fallen sinners.
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap” (Gal. 6:7). Those who fail or refuse to do good in the face of evil are sowing some dangerous seeds. They are doing nothing good as Jesus commanded them to do; they are helping evil to win and have ceased being good and have become partakers of the evil they did nothing to stop.
Way too many Christians do nothing. They are mere spectators. They sit on the sidelines instead of actively participating and working for the good. If good wins, they join in the celebration though they did nothing to produce the victory. If evil wins, they will complain long and loud though their own apathy helped produce the undesirable result.
When it gets down to the bare facts, the only advantage the Republican Party offers is that it is the lesser of two evils.
Red Cloud: If you’re going to insult someone, it doesn’t help to START that insult by telling them you love them.
As to my not knowing God (whatever that means) or scripture:
“Christian Retailing” magazine—THE industry magazine for Christian booksellers and retailers—just ran a very favorable review of a book I co-authored (with Stephen Arterburn) called “Being Christian,” which is just out.
Here are some things “Christian Retailing” said about “Being Christian”:
“[Being Christian] is a veritable primer on theology for the layperson…. It tackles the questions not only of Christians, but also of agnostics, atheists, and adherents of other faiths. The authors also provide sage advice on choosing a church, selecting a Bible translation, praying for one’s enemies, and many other topics, even explaining the difference between a “fundamentalist” and an “evangelical.” Especially helpful is their survey of the entire Bible and profiles of important figures from the Old Testament. [This book] delivers solid content. ‘Being Christian” will benefit new believers as well as veterans of the faith.”
“Being Christian” also got an extremely good—and relatively rare—review from Publisher’s Weekly. You can read that review here:
http://johnshoreland.com/my-books/being-christian-exploring-where-you-god-and-life-connect/
Do you really think the conservative Christian publishing house, Bethany House, would pay me good money to team up with conservative Christian radio host Stephen Arterburn (or that Arterburn would have me) to publish a book called “Being Christian: Exploring Where You, God, and Life Connect” if they didn’t know that I knew God and scripture?
Isn’t there something in scripture about not judging others?
Red Clod - You might also want to refrain from labeling John’s readers (”most of your blog responders are either non-Christians or fringe/cult-type Christians” ) - as you don’t know any of them personally. In my case you are right, but I take offense on behalf of those for whom you are wrong. Besides, even if John’s readers were all on the fringe, is John wrong to reach out to them?
Additionally, we readers are here because we want to learn and understand, and maybe even grow a little. John’s writing is accessible and teaches us to be more tolerant, a lesson that’s available to you too. Saying you love someone and then bashing them isn’t tolerant or loving.
Yeah. What he said. (And THANKS, by the way, David.)
Red Cloud - To be fair, and to respond to the content of your message regarding voting for supporters of evil, I’d like to pose a question to you regarding voting Republican, specifically for John McCain. Please go to my blog (I used a shortened URL to make it easier).
http://bit.ly/4grRaQ
I really would appreciate an honest answer, as I want to learn. Please note that I use humor in my blog, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not serious in my interest. Thanks!
Historically my family have always been split. Based only on political party, my grandparents’ votes “cancelled each other out,” and my parents’ do the same.
I always thought that Christians tended more to be Republicans, and I thought I was all edgy for registering independent (OOOHHH!), and then I lived in New England, where Democratic and/or liberal Christians (and there were many; I think my church was around 50/50) would chastize the Republican/conservatives because they didn’t want to help the homeless and others that need it. And I realized that the culture in a particular region of the country plays way more into political stances than whether you’re a Christian or not.
And then I realized that the vast majority of people make huge generalizations on topics they don’t actually know much about, especially when it comes to politics and the views of candidates and their respective parties.
And THEN I realized that Christians can be jerks with other Christians just as easily as with non-Christians, using God (or their view of him anyway) to convince people to believe as they do.
Excellent post John…most thought provoking I would say…
Except for the first paragraph, I agree with much of what Redcloud said. When we get “saved” or born again, the Holy Spirit turns the lights on as it were…We see things anew. I suppose if one never looks into the arguments for the other side then ones views would never change from when they didn’t know the Lord. As for me, I listened to the other sides (I was somewhat liberal) ideas and found that they seemed to get approval from the Holy Spirit and they also jived with the way the world appeared to me to operate. Mainly that would come down to how we view the nature of man. Conservative thought would say man is inclined towards evil whereas Liberal thought would say, not so man is basically good, it’s just a lack of resources that is the cause of his problems. What you believe on this issue will for the most part determine where you stand politically.
By no means is the Republican party the party of God, but it’s platform is closer to being Biblical than the other side. Honestly, the other side is so clearly wrong to me that voting Republican sometimes is more of a vote against the Democrat and what they espouse than a vote for the particular Republican.
Well, John McCain was around when Jesus first appeared, so maybe we should ask him?
In all seriousness, from having read the bible it appears that many of the views expressed there are conservative in nature. But this is at least in part because the book is thousands of years old and conservatism is all about old ways, traditional ways and not changing.
morsec0de, I agree to a point, but then Jesus showed up and his whole purpose was to revolutionize how we relate to God & each other. So that would lean toward progressivism I think.
To me it’s tricky because in general Republican, Democrat, conservative, and liberal/progressive each touch different things. It’s hard to always lump them into groups. My understanding of being Republican is that less government is better. Democrat tends toward more government to help more people. Then there’s conservative, leaning toward staying the same, and finally liberal/progressive, or ‘change is good.’ There are actually really good aspects of all of those. It’s a question of when which thing is appropriate, and to which extent.
And we haven’t even touched the Libertarians.
“morsec0de, I agree to a point, but then Jesus showed up and his whole purpose was to revolutionize how we relate to God & each other. So that would lean toward progressivism I think.”
Perhaps, but one change in 6,000 years doesn’t seem very ‘progressive’ to me.
Nonono! This entire issue has been driving me nuts for quite a while now. My whole family and most of my friends are Republicans and I’m a Democrat. Last night at the county fair I ran off by myself to the Democrat booth to meet the volunteers and pick up a button, and my parents, who don’t even like John McCain, ran off to the Republican booth to buy buttons of his face because he’s “the lesser of two evils”. I wouldn’t mind so much if they weren’t so nasty about politics..They think Christians can’t be Democrats, and Democrats can’t be Christians, which disturbs me since my political opinions are a result of my faith.
John,
Have been following your blog for a while now, and many times am left thanking God that there are other Christians out there who refuse to follow the tide of conventional Christianity. Sometimes it gets lonely
I think Derek Webb says it best. “There are two great lies that I’ve heard: the day you eat of the fruit of that tree you will not surely die, and that Jesus Christ is a white middle-class Republican and if you want to be saved you have to learn to be like Him.”
Being a Christian isn’t a privilege bestowed upon conservative North Americans. Christianity doesn’t dictate how we vote. The Bible actually has nothing to say about choosing our leaders - but it certainly talks about how we are to submit to the leaders we have. Maybe instead of being so concerned with how “we” (American Christians) are going to vote someone into office who will help us accomplish our personal goals of making our country more “moral,” we should focus on the things that occupied Christ’s thoughts and energies - loving and pleasing His Father, and loving and serving the lost. We’re so busy working on an agenda that when non-Christians see us, they do not see Christ. That is a deep, deep shame.
And there’s my two cents.
Hi all,
This is interesting: http://tinyurl.com/6ozedh
God bless!
Maybe the resistance to getting on board with the vast majority of Christians is rebellion. Maybe the 80% are submitting to the Holy Spirit whereas the other 20 are resisting Him. Just a thought.
I’ve always been contrarian in nature which is a mixed bag for sure. But when I came to know the Lord, I said you know what I’ve lived my own way for a long time and am not happy with the results. I’m gonna allow God to mold my views, be humble and submit to the direction of the Holy Spirit and I honestly believe that the views I now hold are born of the Spirit. And quite honestly, when I see believers who vote for candidates that clearly support Godless issues I think their either uninformed or in rebellion.
dlward: Very nice. Well said. Thank you.
talia: thank you, too. Nice.
Skerrib: thanks again for your honest, unpretentious, ever-open exploration.
John:
I can’t help but think of the examples in Bible where Jesus shows respect for the government and pays taxes when appropriate (and Paul re-emphasizes that fact that God established the governing authorities), but Jesus also teaches His followers that His kingdom will never be established on earth through political means. That seems like a good balanced place to start.
Next, I agree that many people label themselves as Democrat or Republican (D or R) because of their socialization, or the strength of a political party in their region of the country.
But part of the reason why respect for/loyalty to political parties has decreased over time is that people don’t know WHAT that party stands really for, and they don’t know what they personally believe either.
So it’s just been a disaster waiting to happen when the views of both the political party and those who are involved in the party are fuzzy. The name of that D or R ceases to mean as much, and people get frustrated and say, “They’re all the same,” even though they’re not.
So it’s even more important for followers of Jesus — who want to be salt and light in the world — to go beyond inherited views and and party labels, and personalize their beliefs. Just like no one can be grandfathered into a personal relationship with Jesus, no American should just say, “I’m a D,” or “I’m an R,” without understanding what that means.
And since it is tough to pin down these issues, I was really encouraged to find a source that explains the topics, and then shows where the viewpoints fall on the spectrum — in a quick and fair way:
http://www.studentnewsdaily.com/other/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/
Good, thought-provoking stuff!
Sorry, I only read about half of the comments before I decided to go on …
I was once a Republican. I was very conservative.
I then realized that if I’m willing to impose my views on others — say, perhaps, regarding abortion, no-fault divorce, gay marriage, etc. — then I should also be willing to impose those same views regarding charity, turning the other cheek, etc..
Since then, I’ve grown closer to God and farther from the GOP. I’m an independent, and I choose to call myself a “moderate,” if you must take one of the simple labels. Neither of the major parties holds to a particularly-Christian platform, which we should expect, since most people aren’t Bible-believing Christians.
I reject the Democrats for their dismissal of human life in the womb. I reject the Republicans for their dismissal of human life in other countries. There are many more reasons why I reject both major parties, but that will suffice, I think.
I’m curious as to where Redcloud finds this mandate to install Christian leaders, by the way … since democracy wasn’t in place anywhere, particularly, at the time the Bible was written, I don’t recall Paul, Jesus, or anyone else commenting much on civics. But maybe I just don’t know my Scripture very well, either.
I’m not sold on his position, but I find myself having more and more empathy with the theologian David Lipscomb (1831–1917) who advocated that Christians completely disengage from the government, having only to do with it what the law requires (such as paying taxes, etc.).
There are certain advantages to this, not the least of which is no longer having disputes among believers about who they “can” or “cannot” vote for.
John - Great post. I happen to agree with you. I have grown very weary over the whole Jesus is a conservative Republican attitude over the years.
Modern Christianity has given up on the idea of taking the message of Christ to the world, unless one of them happens to stumble through the doors of a church on Sunday morning. Somehow we have determined that the message of Christ is best applied in today’s culture by forcing our own beliefs on the rest of the country through legislated morality.
If Christians could suddenly get laws passed legislating all our beliefs (as if we could agree on those) would the majority of the country suddenly realize they needed Jesus and start following him? Of course not, it can’t be forced or legislated. You would never know that by observing today’s Christian culture would you?
If imposed governmental morality led people to Jesus surely he would have just set up an earthly kingdom that did such a thing. It would have been much easier, and less painful than dying on a cross.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t vote. I’m saying that Christian culture today has placed far too much importance on politics. Being an example and light to the world has come to mean voting for people that we think will force the light and message on them.
From my perspective that approach seems to be failing miserably.
Hey, JS…
For the record, I am a Christ-follower who happens to vote (GASP!)INDEPENDENTLY. I vote for the man, not the party, for the character, not the ticket. I read and study the Bible and use its standards for leadership, then I look to see where the guy/gal stands on the issues and I vote for the one who comes closest to what the Bible says. Not the other way around.
In this age, God is definately not republican. McCain is an ignorent homophobe, and just because he’s a war hero doesn’t mean his success in the field will transfer to presidency.
How can you vote for a party that denies Biblical values ? A party that says abortion [murder] is ok ? When I became a Christian I began to see the evil in the Democratic party and have voted conservatively ever since then . Is God pro-choice? He gives me the free will to choose to murder my brother or not , but I don’t think He wants me to choose to do so ! Same with abortion!From reading the Bible most of my adult life , I think God also is an ignorant homophobe!
Redcloud ! Well said ! You are quite articulate and have the mind for thinking , my friend ! You are cut out for leadership !
I believe more people have been murdered in the name of religion than for any other reason. Including Christians…they went to war in the name of God, and I believe The Crusades were a very dark period for Christians.
I believe Democrats usually hold values like taking care of the meek, the powerless, the hungry, the homeless, the poor…I believe Jesus himself held these types of values near and dear to his heart.
If Jesus showed up today I believe he would absolutely spank his followers, and everyone else. While Christians pile their money up to build these fantastic churches as monuments to their wealth, show up on Sunday morning in their spotless H2’s, dressed to the nines… across town children are being abused and neglected…and being murdered.
I believe Jesus, while not the son of God, had a great message. One of love, forgiveness, and hope. I believe he would ask why Christians have forgotten his message and are so eager to pick up their spear…
The bible is full of clutter that clouds the simple message of Jesus, and God for that matter… the latter gave us a beautiful planet that would provide all we need…but we’re quickly ruining that…and Jesus said “hey guys, just love each other, share your stuff, and enjoy!” and we’ve long since forgotten that message.
I believe if Jesus were here today…he would simply sit down and weep for what we have all become…
John, my long time question about born again Christians is, are they Christians or are they Jews? In otherwords, to what extent does is the old testament supported by Jesus? Many Christians I know who dwell on the teachings of Jesus, tend to be strongly social justice orientated. Other Christians who dwell on the old testament tend towards conservatism and punishments. Certainly the aspect of God often depicted in the Old Testament is wrathful.
Good points here, I’m interested to read them all. I’d like to think that I consult the Holy Spirit about my voting, but many times it is just easier to follow the “labels”. I agree with those who have stated that there is no political solution to this country’s problems - we have a spiritual problem that is manifested in our politics, economics, etc, but none of that can be legislated away, it will take repentance, and until God’s people live what they say they believe (preaching to myself, too) that will not happen.
In the 29 years that I been voting, I can only remember voting for a Democrat once, someone who I knew personally and had seen their Christian walk - so it could happen that the Holy Spirit could prompt you to vote Democrat, but it would be a relatively rare occasion
Oh good gracious John. I shudder to think that the Holy Spirit would force me to vote anything. That would mean God lied about my free will. That would really mess me up.
I am a confirmed Independent who has extremely conservative views tempered by radically liberal views. The funny thing is that I have always voted based on one thing. My pocket change. I look at how each parties record affect my bottom line. Outside of that none of them are much different from each other. The differences between the parties are more like dusk and dawn than they are like night and day. They are just a matter of timing.
I find it funny that many Christians approach to politics is faith based. Sure there are moral issues such as the dreaded “a” word, but we live in America and tolerance, understanding and freedom are what we are supposed to strive for not “our way or the highway” mentality I see all too often.
I am weary of the way many Christians inject religion and faith based beliefs into the political process. It does not belong there. Once you begin to legislate religious beliefs and doctrine you are one step from becoming exactly what we claim to fight against. Religious extremist governments who trample the rights of anyone who doesn’t believe the way they do. That’s why we invaded Iraq isn’t it? Or was it the WMDs? Anyway…
Now that I think of it, maybe if we let the religious groups run the country the Canadians and the French will come liberate us. That could be fun. I I like Canadians, I LOVE French food (especially the fries) and I could use a nationally funded health care program.
“How can you vote for a party that denies Biblical values ? A party that says abortion [murder] is ok ? When I became a Christian I began to see the evil in the Democratic party and have voted conservatively ever since then . Is God pro-choice? He gives me the free will to choose to murder my brother or not , but I don’t think He wants me to choose to do so ! Same with abortion!From reading the Bible most of my adult life , I think God also is an ignorant homophobe!”
Yeah, why discuss the issue rationally? Much easier to label things murder than to actually find out what the truth of the matter is.
I might try it myself. Death penalty? Nope, murder. Military fighting? Nope, definitely murder.
Things are so much easier when black and white, don’t you agree?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA @ morsec0de
“Well, John McCain was around when Jesus first appeared, so maybe we should ask him?
”
That one sentence made my day! Thanks for the laugh!
I really love that most Republicans are single-issue voters. Guess what? There are actually more issues out there! I know! Who knew? Well, now you do…
When I think of my Jesus, He had lots of issues to concern himself with. Abortion isn’t the only issue in this country. As for myself, I’ve been called a fundamentalist my maaaaaaaaany for my husband-led housefold, no female head pastors, quiverfull views. But I’m a Democrat.
There are better ways to combat abortion than legislatively, as evidenced by the backroads, botched abortions that kill not only the baby but also the woman. If you really want to get into Christ’s findamental work, how about we care for the widow and the orphan? How about we get serious about missions? How about we agree that God wouldn’t want the whole lot of us stuck on one issue, because He’s got a lot of work to do and He needs hands and feet in all directions.
I am a Christian (and I don’t mean a progressive - I’m pretty traditional and orthodox when it comes to theology) who feels that both the Republicans and Democrats miss the mark by a long shot on key issues. I guess that gives me the labels of “independent” and “moderate,” which I don’t think are quite right, but I see very few biblical principles reflected in either party.
I end up at odds with the Democrats over the abortion issue as I believe that life begins at conception and should not be voluntarily terminated. I believe marriage is for one man and one woman. I believe it’s important to intervene when entire people groups suffer under oppressive regimes.
But I end up at odds with the Republicans because I oppose the death penalty. I believe we should be providing greater relief to impoverished nations. I believe we should be leading the global fight against AIDS. I believe we should take greater steps to preserving the environment. I don’t believe that big business should be able to walk all over laborers.
I don’t think the “classic Christian” political mindset is based on Christian theology and ideology so much as it is that both the Democratic party and Republican party have been long-ago hijacked by various special interests, and those parties have become complacent in their platforms despite the fact that the things they support and oppose don’t even make sense with each other in the context of their own party.
In my mind, any Christian who votes a straight party line because they think that theirs is the “Christian” political party does a huge disservice to the true Kingdom of God. We need to use the Word to discern right from wrong regarding every candidate and law for which we’re called to cast a vote.
I’ll be voting republican, because, at this point, it is the party that is against abortion. If that changes then there will be something to consider.
@17 Live & Learn: That website has an obvious conservative republican leaning.
I decided to respond to the actual post instead of 33 comments.
Several things to say…
First off, I have always been convinced that we should vote Republican as Christians. Why? For the same reason that I was a homophobe, and for the same reason that I was “patriotic” and wore Old Navy fourth of july shirts. Because that’s just what we did in fundamental christianity.
I was wrong. I was wrong to be a homophobe, and fling angry insults at non-republicans, and do a million other political things that I thought were right.
Being a Christian does not make you an automatic republican. Amen? Amen. I am against abortion. I am all about conserving energy and finding fuel-efficient ways to help out our economy. Darfur is a complete and absolute genocide, a nightmare that has pretty much been ignored by the current president. Sure, he’s shown up for a few speeches, “pressured China”, but mainly he keeps a “closed-lip” policy: If someone makes the US mad, we just won’t talk to them.
And he’s republican, right?
Plus, how many times has he promised us that he would overturn Roe vs. Wade, and guess what? It’s still standing. He hasn’t even rattled it. McCain will do the same thing. I’m sick of it. I’m sick of empty promises regarding abortion.
So if we are never going to overturn Roe vs. Wade in these four years, I look for other issues that concern me. Such as Iran and Iraq. Obama wants to rid the earth of nuclear weapons. I say it’s worth a shot. Come on, people, we’re killing our own sons and daughters overseas in a power-show! We proved our point in Iraq - now send our loved ones home.
Plus, if we were to follow our constitution, then Gay marriage would be legal. Period. I don’t agree with homosexuality, but let’s consider why America was established in the first place - not as a “God-fearing nation” like some would claim, but as a place where people could worship however they wished.
In conclusion, I’m fairly sure that I will be voting Democratic in the 2008 elections. Am I a democrat? Not really. As John put it, “For the record, I’m neither liberal nor conservative. Some of my opinions are conservative. Some are liberal. Depends on the issue. Call me a Liberal Republican. Call me a Conservative Democrat. Better yet, don’t call me at all—especially if you want to talk politics.” I couldn’t phrase it better.
We need to remember that we are not voting for a moral, conservative, Christian leader (McCain is almost further from that description than Obama); we are voting for the president of a secular country in which we live.
…and for the record I would say I second Ingrid.
“I am weary of the way many Christians inject religion and faith based beliefs into the political process. It does not belong there. Once you begin to legislate religious beliefs and doctrine you are one step from becoming exactly what we claim to fight against. Religious extremist governments who trample the rights of anyone who doesn’t believe the way they do. That’s why we invaded Iraq isn’t it? Or was it the WMDs? Anyway…”
lol. Awesome. You rock, my friend.
I guess we kinda forgot that Jesus is coming back to establish HIS government HIMSELF. Do we have that much faith in our government that it’s going to change and we can’t agree on how to swat a fly? Democrats, Republicans, Independents, and everyone else working together, consistently?!?! Let’s get real. Yeah, when He comes back and set things up Himself and everything will be under Him. Some things has to be left up to Him to do Himself and government is absolutely one of them. Yes, they have done good things, both Republican and Democrat, and there is a purpose for them when you look at the big picture. They have fallen short, way short in some instances, also. I have no problem with voting and voting who fit your views, which should match Christ’s as we grow in the faith. But what if your candidate does not get in there? We still have to pray for him regardless. As long as we are in this fallen world, there will be “fallen” governments that are not and will not be perfect. God uses governments all the time for His purposes. Just look throughout the Bible and even now. Why do you think He’s coming back to set up His? One thing I do know of, God always have and always will take care of us, no matter who is in there. Not one cannot dispute the goodness of God and how He takes care of His children, no matter what.
Ingrid:
The Holy Spirit’s guidance doesn’t ever take away free will; it’s a nudge, a strong sense of where God is leading you. It’s a deeper insight beyond the obvious, especially when two options seem equally valid — and in voting, that could be invaluable.
Heather:
It might be fair to say that single-issue voters can be present on both sides of the political fence, but no one should be — and that’s why it’s important for voters to do their homework about ALL the issues.
John, what’s your latest take on your post?
so muddled thought here…
I here this constant refrain that Jesus was this revolutionary into social justice. This is the view of someone who has not studied the New Testament. Jesus, who is the same God as the one in the OT BTW, spoke specifically about Hell numerous times (over 40)…in vivid detail no less. Search the OT and you will not find such detailed references to the existence of Hell.
Jesus said disturbing things that should cause one to pause. Hopefully His words would cause the sinner to see his need for a saviour and for the sinner to accept Gods free gift.
Everything we do and think is known by God and we will account for it. Make sure that your vote is approved by God for you will be called to account for it. The prevailing sentiment is that both parties are messed up and so I’m an Independent. Calling yourself and Independent is the post-modern thing to do; you can’t be pinned down to anything calling yourself and Independent…very post-modern. But I think Moral Clarity is what God desires of Christians, “let your yes be yes and your no be no…”
It’s too late now, but has anyone ever considered legally changing their name to “None of the Above” and running for office? I get the feeling such a candidate would have a good chance in this year’s presidential election.
As far as “litmus” or “one issue” voting goes, I confess I am one of those - as the saying (kinda) goes, “There is just some ‘crap’ I will not eat”
Gosh, I got here late, went to the beach yesterday. So…I’m not going to read through all the comments (and since I know most people won’t be reading this comment I think that is fair). I just have some personal experience to share:
I was born a conservative Republican to conservative Republican family. Bill Buckley was my childhood idol (I still love his writing) and the learned to walk at John Birch Society meetings. When I converted to Christianity in middle age (about 5 years ago) I was thrilled that the theology dove tailed nicely with my own political view points. But that was because I was ‘re-born’ into a fundamentalist community. I even remember asking that same question of someone; “How can any Christian be a liberal (aka Democrat)”.
Fortunately for me, conversion is an ongoing process of discovery and growth. As I’ve left fundamentalism behind, Christ has introduced me to some new types of political thought (new to me, anyway). I understand now that there are a whole slew of political and spiritual questions that both conservatives and liberals are not asking themselves.
Although I disagree with the person who suggested that Christians recuse themselves from the civic arena, I do believe that following Christ means that you really can’t follow a political party at the same time. I think this applies to patriotism as well. You can’t drape the flag around Jesus’ shoulders, as I once saw in a painting. (shudder!)
“I guess we kinda forgot that Jesus is coming back to establish HIS government HIMSELF.”
Have fun waiting for that.
Live and Learn (#17), that chart at studentnewsdaily to which you provided a link is based on a book by a highly conservative commentator (works at Fox, I think), and is subtly (sometimes not so subtly) biased to the conservative side. I’m a librarian and teacher, and students occasionally ask me what “conservative” and “liberal” really mean, at least politically. The chart is interesting to look at, but I have problems referring students to it because it really isn’t even-handed.
As to the question under discussion, I wonder whether evangelical Christians wouldn’t be better off to repudiate media types such as the late Rev. Falwell, Pat Robertson, and so on. I don’t question either man’s faith, but both had political ambitions (the latter in particular). Their activities helped associate evangelicism with a particular strain of politics, and both were guilty of (shall we say) extreme, or at least ill-advised public statements that painted evangelicals as intolerant, fringe radicals. It is hard not to view this as unfortunate and misleading.
Most evangelicals I know (and that includes most of my family) are decent, caring people, no more prejudiced or biased than anyone else; yet opinion polls show strongly that Christians in general and “evangelical fundamentalists” in particular are perceived as intolerant and judgmental. I would think this widespread (mis)perception would trouble Christians. -I- don’t believe Robertson et al. speak for all evangelicals, any more than media blowhards like Rush Limbaugh really represent conservative thought– but many people do.
Sam
I’m not democrat or republican … I vote pro-life … because I think that’s how Jesus would vote. And if being a Christian is striving to be Christ-like by making the type of decisions you believe Jesus Himself would make, then voting should be included in that.
So again… I am not democrat or republican … I vote pro-life.
God Bless,
Litha
I’ve prayed about my choice–I’ve spent more than 6 months reading and studying issues. I am content to vote GOP in this election.
IF that makes me less Christian in anyones eyes–so be it.
Litha, what exactly is ‘pro-life’? Does this only pertain to a stance on abortion? Or could it also be stance against euthanasia, capital punishment and war?
Wouldn’t a pro-life position also entail addressing a system that fosters illegitimacy and poverty? Would pro-life also mean finding financial supports for unwed mothers? Being ‘pro’ birth control as a means of reducing unwanted conceptions?
The left has their agenda and catchphrase on the issue of ‘life’ just as the right does but after 40 years we still have an intolerable situation. It is necessary for both parties to engage each other in tolerant and open minded discussion.if eliminating or reducing the number of abortions is our goal.
I again re-iterate that I have not seen Bush do anything to change the Roe vs. Wade legislation, and I have a feeling that McCain is making the same empty promises. They give us the same song, same dance… just a different face to wear the mask.
Sam said: “The chart is interesting to look at, but I have problems referring students to it because it really isn’t even-handed.”
When I taught college students at a large public university, I found it important to help them realize that each media source has a leaning. Part of critical thinking is to look at a source and learn from it, while understanding the underlying views that affect the content.
Your students will never find a completely neutral source to explain political positions on critical public policy topics. It’s inaccurate to label certain sources as biased and others as unbiased; each will be influenced by a world view of some kind.
Since it’s almost impossible (as we’ve both discovered) to locate any quick chart that compares political ideas, I thought it was a great starting point for discussion. I’d love to see how you might revise even that chart; it would be fascinating to see which specific parts/wording you find less than even-handed and how you would resolve those concerns.
Hi, guys. I’m MOVING today—my life right now consists entirely of boxes, tape, packing paper, and an unnerving sense that everything I own is about to get ruined or lost—but I want to say how much I’ve enjoyed following all of your responses. It’s been an exceptionally … normal set of comments. Thanks to you all, very much. Great stuff.
My walk with God has no bearing on which party I might vote for. “I don’t belong to any organized party. I’m a Democrat” pretty well sums it up for me. I chose that party as Dems held all offices in the county I lived…and the state. You might as well have a say into which Dem got voted in. These Dems were mostly Christians, too, so I disagree with folks that say Dems aren’t Christians… God isn’t like that, either. I’d hate to be an elected official, promising to vote on issues the way my constituents wanted, especially if they were pro-murder….I mean, pro-choice.May God help direct all politicians in their leadership. Which scripture says that people come into power through God’s allowing it? I know I’ve heard that one before. I trust in God!
Romans 13:1
(That was in response to Bill, #50)
>>>Wickle wrote: I reject the Democrats for their dismissal of human life in the womb. I reject the Republicans for their dismissal of human life in other countries.<<<
Exactly–that’s what I wanted to say! Can I quote you from now on?
“Do you think voting Republican is a natural consequence of being Christian?”
No, I don’t. And further — I think those who say it is are full of hooey up to their eyeballs. Perhaps higher. That said, becoming a Christian did radically alter how I see the world, how I think about issues and politics, and for whom I will cast my vote.
“And if it’s not—if believing in Jesus has no natural or particular bearing on a person’s political affinities—then isn’t it wrong for conservatives to assert that they have any better or more comprehensive a grasp on Christ’s spirit than liberals do?”
Yes. But who cares? Isn’t it, ultimately, entirely unimportant whether conservatives (or liberals … or whomever) assert that or not? So much of what is claimed or asserted or opined is, in the long run, nothing more than us being in love with the sound of our own gums flapping.
It’s an election year. Examine your heart and conscience, pray, listen as best you can to the guidance you receive, and then go vote.
Or don’t.
Gums will still keep flapping. Truth will still be truth. Everything that is over our heads is already under His feet.
Barry wrote (#25):
“I believe more people have been murdered in the name of religion than for any other reason.”
I believe you are (factually) way off there.
There’s a list of maybe a dozen or so “lines” that those who are antagonistic to religion/Christianity like to trot out to bolster their position. This is one of those lines.
None of them stand up to honest scrutiny, in my opinion — and I used to spout them all, ad nauseum, having been an ardent detractor of religion for my first 50 years of life.
Shell, feel free to quote me.
As to the question of what it means to be pro-life … I like Presidential candidate Joe Schriner, who refers to what he calls his Consistent Life Ethic. He’s pro-life on every question.
He applies the Just War Theory (and thus rejects most wars), he’s pro-life when it comes to capital punishment, abortion, the environment, and everything else.
And that’s why I back him.
I did have a choice in the Republican primary, but he didn’t get the nomination, and so I am voting for a candidate who fits my values.
#54 Candace–What you said makes so much sense….especially your last sentence. Thanks for that.
In the old days, it used to be that ‘conservative’ and ‘liberal’ were references to fiscal policies. The republicans were about minimal spending, small government. The democrats were about liberal spending for social services and, necessarily, bigger government. Somewhere along the line; the republican party seems have gotten their undies in a bunch about legislating morality (i.e. who can marry whom, the ostensible ‘murder’ of a cluster of embryonic cells, et. al.)…none of which advances the functioning of our government and, at times, cripples research and education.
We need to contemplate the road that we are paving when we start building religious morality into (what was designed as) our secular government. Ponder the list of countries that have embraced religious morality in their government…hmmm….let’s see…. We have Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and all the nasty Christian domination of Europe in the old days. There has been great evil perpetrated in the effort to destroy evil throughout history.
Believe what you want, but let us be sure to not try to legislate morality if there is no victim. If you claim a victim where others do not see one; then you must make your case in a universal language, not a religious one.
As to the question of whether the Holy Spirit would vote Republican…that depends on which version of which Holy Spirit that you are absolutely sure of. It would seem to me that, if there were there a Holy Spirit, there would be one heck of a lot of smiting in political circles!
There is a Holy Spirit, and there will definitely be some smiting, but in the meantime, lets thank God for His mercy, grace, and longsuffering and love some people away from the path they have thus far chosen. There is a kingdom to be built, and how you vote has negligible effect on it.
Done ranting, thanks
John………yo, John! You all moved in now? Yay, yay, YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Packing, boxing, moving, unpacking, all suck, but YOUR OWN PLACE!
>>>Mike (FVThinker) Burns wrote: If you claim a victim where others do not see one; then you must make your case in a universal language, not a religious one.<<<
I just bought a book called “Defending LIfe: A Moral and Legal Case Against Abortion Choice” that claims to do just this. It just arrived in the mail, so I haven’t had a chance to start it yet, but the author bases his arguments on philosophical arguments, not religious ones. I’m looking forward to this read.
Hello, I just read you note about Is God a Republican. Let me tell you about an incident that happened at my church. I was new, so didn’t know hardly anyone. Well, I attended this class and overheard someone say that ” You cannot be a Democrat and Christian both” I was devastated. I still attend the church only because I know that’s where God wants me. Also, that was the only incident to complain about. I went for a few years not letting anyone know my political affiliation. Then I thought—hey, why not?! So now some of the people that go to church there know where I stand. I like your idea of conservative Democrat. If I wasn’t a poll worker, I would be and independant voter. Neither Dem or Rep. Just wanted to let you know. I struggle with this at times. but I am getting over it. I figured that whoever said it, is dealing with the Lord anyway. Thanks.
umm… what happened to voting for the best person? I think it makes more since to vote for the right person instead of only voting for the people you agree with.
@Shell
Re: “Defending Life”…
It is pretty easy to make an argument against abortion on a broad scale. The complexity is that there is a vast difference between a cluster of cells and a full term baby. A simplistic argument is that somewhere along that continuum, the fetus gradually gains some sentience, can suffer, and gains consciousness.
I wouldn’t delude myself into speaking authoritatively on that matter. What I can say, though, is that the non-differentiated embryonic cells can no more suffer than can a stone. I find it inconceivable that the author of your book can make a case against embryonic stem cell research without invoking a claimed divine soul imparted to the human embryo.
Keep me posted on that latter argument
“What I can say, though, is that the non-differentiated embryonic cells can no more suffer than can a stone.” - FVThinker
It’s not a question of whether or not the foetus is capable of suffering, it’s a question of whether or not the foetus has a spirit. If it does then abortion is murder; if not then it isn’t.
Personally I’m not sure on that point - I’ve not read the relevant sections of the Bible, and I know there are conflicting views on this. However I’m still very much opposed to the ease with which women can get abortions, for two other reasons.
Firstly, I strongly believe that people should live with the consequences of their actions - and in the case of unprotected sex one obvious consequence is pregnancy. Abortions encourage people to act irresponsibly by taking away the “inconvenience” of pregnancy.
Secondly, abortions are a decision often made without the father’s consent or even his knowledge and I believe that breaches his rights as a father. It’s one of several ways in which men are treated as second-class citizens when it comes to the care of their own children, and that is profoundly wrong.
That all said, abortion is about the only major issue on which I agree with the Republicans and not the Democrats; regarding most things I tend to take a fairly liberal stance.
I spent a long time outside the Church, and while there I saw the Church as many others see us - and it is not a pleasant sight, especially when I consider the Great Commission:
” Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit “ - Matt 28:19
All too often we get so focussed on proving that our way is the right way, the only way, that we forget to show love to others. We get caught up in legalism and pride, not willing to admit that we’re human and might be wrong, and in doing so we hurt and alienate others. In some cases, love is even made conditional on absolute obedience; this is why so many gay and trans people have a near-pathological hatred of the Church. But a resentful heart cannot listen to the truth, so instead of winning souls we drive them away.
If we are going to win the hearts and minds of others we need to come alongside and try to understand them - but we can’t do that if they are resentful of us, if they feel we’re imposing our morality on them. In this respect, legislating morality is counter-productive - it pushes away the very people we should be trying to reach, hardening their hearts against Christ’s message.
I did a political test a few months ago to see who, as an Australian, I could vote for in the US election if I had the option. Despite my very Christianness, I came out as a Barack Obama supporter.
In Australia, the Liberal Party is the most “conservative” out of the two main political parties, and they’d prefer to keep the monarchy. Labor is more “liberal”, and they want a republic. The Democrats have no real idea what they are.
So, anyway, what I meant to say in this post is that US politics makes no sense to me.
I do believe as a Christian we ought to be carefull as to who we vote
for and what the person stands for in the long run vote for the person
who is standing for christian ideals and morality the best he or she
can. But republican or Democrat or Green party or other parties
you do not become more christian by voteing for a party.
I tell you I may vote partly for one party and choose one person
from another party to vote for because of his her stance on some
issue.
If you are Christian have Christ’s life in you and your spirit is
discerning because of your christian views you don’t need a party
you need discernment and then choose whom to vote for. and
where to stand on an issue.
It’s not a question of whether or not the foetus (sic) is capable of suffering, it’s a question of whether or not the foetus (sic) has a spirit. If it does then abortion is murder; if not then it isn’t. — Tavdy
Assuming that the ‘spirit’ is endowed with its own rights, you are probably right. But this is a religious argument and not a universal argument…hence…the first amendment to our Constitution gives it no quarter in our government.
Firstly, I strongly believe that people should live with the consequences of their actions - and in the case of unprotected sex one obvious consequence is pregnancy. Abortions encourage people to act irresponsibly by taking away the “inconvenience” of pregnancy. — Tavdy
It would seem many equate support of abortion rights to simply having a convenient way to act irresponsibly. I don’t doubt that there are some irresponsible people that use it that way, but they would be the exception. I am 100% with you re: personal responsibility. But we also need to recognize the fact that people have sex with or without religious edicts not to. Where is the morality in bringing a child into poverty, addiction, abuse or dysfunction? To my mind; victimizing a child so is immorality of the highest order. It is one thing to for the ‘adult’ to pay the consequences of their actions, but where is the justification in having a child pay for their parent’s actions?
I agree with you wholly, though…irresponsible sex is immoral. The cult to which I formerly belonged also identified contraception was a sin too…just to complicate things further.
legislating morality is counter-productive — Tavdy
And for that, I [metaphorically] shake your hand.
Before I met the Lord, I was a liberal with a capitol “L”! When I fell in love with Jesus after He revealed Himself to me personally - EVERYTHING about me changed, I was not the same person - not even a vague shadow of my former self existed. All of my ideals were then exchanged for what He desired from me and for me and His glory alone. I would respond to John’s article as this; The Holy Spirit does not abide by the rules of a democracy - He is part of a Kingdom in which He, God is King. Everything bows to Him and His ways. I recently heard that in every other part of the world believers willingly receive the message of submitting to godly order except in the US. We can’t readily process the idea of ‘God ordered’ because the understanding of “our individual rights” is so ingrained in our thinking. Therefore we believe that God should be influenced by our ideas of what’s right and wrong instead of what He clearly mandates and commands. Those who think that God is pleased by their voting in favor of things that He declares in His word as “abominable” are fooling themselves. No, God does not vote - He commands, we submit or we reap the consequences, period. The issues and people that are on the ballod that oppose His commands are the ones we reject and the ones that uphold His word and way are the ones we approve. C’mon people, this is not that difficult, that is, for those who “Delight themselves in Him” Ps 37:4 and those who “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in ALL your ways (including voting) acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.” Prov 3:5&6
@ Andrea -
So, that must mean that McCain, the divorced and remarried adulterer is off your list?
@Andrea
So are you voting for Huckabee?!?!?
@ Andrea
Very well stated! Christians all around the world are praying for American Christians because of the inconsistency you pointed out. We are so in love with our ‘rights’ that we have come to idolize them above our commitment to Christ. We want Him to be our ‘Savior’ but are unwilling to make Him our ‘Lord’.
Over the past 5 years, the Democratic candidate for president (and his wife) gave significantly less to charity than the Republican candidate (and his wife) did.
That just doesn’t compute in my mind.
Maybe that says that it’s the government’s job to eradicate poverty at home and around the world, more so than individuals?
@Mark
McCain (or McCain’s wife) is a bajillionaire (with something between 10 and 13 homes) and Obama only recently skyrocketed to stardom. McCain’s net worth is $40.4mm while Obama’s net worth is $1.3mm. Might not there disaparate net worths be a factor?
Obama
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0712/gallery.candidates.moneymag/5.html
McCain
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0712/gallery.candidates.moneymag/4.html
Net worth doesn’t explain percentage donated of whatever income is earned.
Specific example from the Chicago Tribune:
“In 2002, the year before Obama launched his campaign for U.S. Senate, the Obamas reported income of $259,394, ranking them in the top 2 percent of U.S. households, according to Census Bureau statistics.
That year the Obamas claimed $1,050 in deductions for gifts to charity, or 0.4 percent of their income. The average U.S. household totaled $1,872 in gifts to charity in 2002, according to the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University.”
….and what are the McCain figures?……….
KNOW YOUR BIBLE!!! VOTE BIBICALLY IF POSSIBLE….PRAY WITHOUT CEASING! PRAY HARD…THERE IS NO ONE TO VOTE FOR. IT IS ALL A SET UP ANYWAY. THIS IS “MAN’S” WORLD…WE ARE IN IT BUT NOT OF IT. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THE EVANGELICAL VOTE DISAPPEARED ALTOGETHER? EVER WONDER HOW THAT WOULD PLAY OUT? JESUS DIDN’T VOTE…NOR WAS HE COUNTED. WE WON’T HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE LIE OF THE LAND MUCH LONGER AND THEN THE WORLD WILL SEE AND GET WHAT THEY WISHED FOR.
PS: HOW MUCH OF OBAMA’S 52 MILLION AND McCAIN’S 41MILLION DID THEY TITHE? FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD…..
Jami…tithe to which church?
Let me guess. Yours.
Somehow it always works out that way.
@ Morse (#79)
No, silly! To their own. DUH. Don’t you know anything?
A tithe goes to your own church. A gift is on top of a tithe, and can go to your church or to any other charitable effort a person feels led to support.
There is no money on this earth that is better stewarded or more wisely used than that given via tithing.
God loves a happy giver. A good godly person will tell you that if you cannot give it freely and happily, then don’t give it at all. But if you DO give graciously, it will all come back to you and much, much more.
Luke 6:38
“Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure–pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
Which has so way definitely been my experience.
Hope that helps
“There is no money on this earth that is better stewarded or more wisely used than that given via tithing.”
When pastors stop building mega-churches and the Pope stops living in a golden palace, I’ll be a little closer to believing that.
Totally inconsequential in light of the good done over time. But I suspect we’ll never agree on that, and that’s fine.
I prefer to give my money to the people who actually need it, and not an intermediary that may use my money for something that I don’t want it to go to.
But that must mean, morse, that you only give money to people who are then of course aware of the fact that you personally have given them money. You give … directly that way, one-to-one. And not only do you physically hand that person money, but you also do so with some sort of a prior assurance from them that they will spend that money in a way you approve of. That must be … awkward, right?
It always makes me uncomfortable giving money to an orgaization that does not have to publish their financial records. Churches are exempt (via IRS code) from making public filings of how they spend their money. So is the money going to feed the hungry, or put carpeting in the rectory, or paying off a lawsuit? Hence my monies go to secular organizations with open books.
Okay, I don’t want to get into a whole deal here, but I’ve never given money to any church that didn’t publish–either quarterly or yearly– a full, detailed accounting of every last dime they spent. As far as I know, that’s what all churches do; I personally have never known differently. Churches are made up of people, and NO ONE gives money blindly; congregations are forever holding the people in charge of their church accountable for where the money’s going. That’s just part of church life.
Also, when you give money to a “secular” organization (and I do, every month: we give to Doctors Without Borders and two others), you have no idea if your money’s going to administrative costs, or what. And you don’t care, because you trust them, and believe OVERALL in what they’re doing. Same with churches. Except with a church, you REALLY get to influence how their money is spent, because you’re part of that organization. Don’t disparage church tithing. That’s how a lot of people get fed. And clothed. And receive medical help. No one—no one—even comes close do doing for the needy what Christian charities do.
Fair enough. I use http://www.charitynavigator.org. It does appear that some organizations, despite their exemption, file books anyway. I just cannot find any local religious organizations that do so.
For instance, when I searched for “Salvation Army”, I got the following:
“We don’t evaluate The Salvation Army.
Why not? Many religious organizations are exempt under Internal Revenue Code from filing the Form 990. As a result, we lack sufficient data to evaluate their financial health.“