I’ve recently been invited to a couple of gay weddings. (I live in California, don’t you know—the land of fruits and nuts). So I asked myself the famous “What would Jesus do?” question.
Which led me to the Bible.
Which led me to this:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. (Matthew 23:24),
this:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. (Matthew 23:13),
and, most painfully, this:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. (Matthew 23:15)
And so it seemed to me that I should go to the wedding of my friends, that Jesus would much prefer I put my love into action—that is, that I participate in the world, wherever it calls me to be—rather than staying at home, alone with my dogma, and showing no one any love at all.
But what do you think? Better to go the weddings, and thereby keep and enhance my relationship with my gay friends, or refuse to go, and probably irreparably damage those relationships? Cuz those are my choices.
I was invited to a gay wedding as well; I’m unable to attend due to finances, but I struggled with what my decision should have been. I usually don’t go to weddings at all (unlucky in love, I guess), but I’m grateful that you found the scriptures you did, as that might have made my decision easier.
John,
The quotes of Jesus that you included were Him blasting the Pharisees made up rules, and more importantly, rules that did not originate with God. They were neglecting God’s laws - “love God with all your heart mind and soul, honor father and mother, etc. ” - in favor of their own rules. Included in God’s laws were/are sexually morality. This is not an arguable point and Jesus said he came NOT to abolition the law (God’s law) but to fulfill it.
Some say Jesus never addressed the issue so how can we know for sure where He stood, but there are many sins he didn’t address such as bestiality …so maybe he was for it? The reality is that when Jesus was alive, homosexuality was not an issue amongst the Jewish people and therefore was not addressed as his “mission field” and who He came in contact with was, for the most part, religious Jews. But the gentile world did engage in homosexuality to varying degrees and here Paul, who had much contact with the gentile world, addresses the issue and clearly condemns (Romans 1) it.
My two cents is that we all need to read the Word for what it says and not through a lens of our own opinions. It’s a double edge-sword the Bible is, sometimes it encourages us and sometimes it makes us gulp and realize we need to alter, with God’s help, our behaviour and what we believe.
God Bless
Jesus would have no doubt called it like it was, sin, does he love the homosexual? yes, but he hates the sin. Jesus would not even go, because marriage is between a Man and a Woman, the very frist command was to be fruitful and have children, Jesus can not bless Sin.
no way would have I went,nor do I think Jesus would have. Like Danny said he loves the homosexual, but HATES THE SIN.
I would not go to a gay wedding if invited anymore then I would attend a party where people are using illegal drugs, accompany someone on a shoplifting spree, attend an orgy… well you get the point.
If I believe homosexuality is a sin (and I do), then I would feel that I am somehow condoning that sin by taking place in an event that not only condones the sin but celebrates it as well.
Don’t get me wrong - I do not hate homosexuals. I view their sexual preferences as sin just like any other sin. Nor do I stay away from worldly events, hiding my faith and doctrines under a cover.
However, I feel that if we are going to be representatives of the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel, the line has to be drawn somewhere as to what “events of the world” we as Christians attend and partake of.
Sorry, I was not finished,dont get me wrong,you should share the love of Jesus Christ, and stand for up for what is right,and you can still love your gay friends, but NOT AT ALL CONDOME WHAT THEY DO. And try and show them that what they are doing is wrong and sinful in the Lords eyes. HIS WORD SAID IT. SOME THINGS ARE JUST BLACK & WHITE NO QUESTIONS ASKED. I pray for all that are gay that one day they will let Jesus be the Lord of their lives and know it is true and pure.God loves his people and wants them to know the truth.And not listen to what Satan haas for them. God Bless you all.Jesus is LOVE. But also HATES sin.Anna
David , you hit the nail on the Head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Praise the Lord for Christians who will say things like that!!
I think he would have gone, and talked to those who asked for his advice, and remark upon god, and satan and sin. I dont think he would have a bad attitude, or a holier than thou, he would have preached god and the bible as it said and as he said. I think he would have found the good in people and not just the bad. And I think he would have expressed that they are good, and god loves them, but also that they must accept him and his laws, and at least got them to think about what God wants from them. I dont think he would have asked them to change, I think he would want them to make that decision on their own.
You know I so think you did the right thing!!! Thanks again for your reminder of the oldie but goodie…”God loves EVERYONE”
Interesting replies. My thought is that there is a difference between the issue of Going to a “gay” wedding, and being invited to a wedding by a good friend who is involved in a homosexual relationship. My guess, and maybe I’m wrong is that most of the people who replied only have heterosexual friends. Jesus was notorious for hanging out with sinners. They knew where He stood on their behaviours, yet His love for them was, in some cases at least, a life changing experience. Love God. Love your neighbour as yourself.
one other thing…I wonder if David would go to a wedding if he knew someone in the wedding party had a drinking problem or if he knew the guest sitting next to him was gay…cuz that’s probably happened you know…I don’t think I’ve ever been to a sinless wedding…
Everyone that would have went ,,,would you like Daivd Wallace said go to a drug party or an orgy,sin is sin? We are not saying we dont love people or that God does not love ALL people. But he has said you have to be in this world BUT NOT OF THIS WORLD.
To Anna who wouldn’t go anywhere there might be sin - When my neighbour, who isn’t a Christian invites us over to a BBQ where some of the people are smoking dope and/or drinking alcohol, I still go. I even let our kids play with his kids. Yikes!
@makarios - True that Jesus was always around sinners - prostitutes, tax collectors, lawyers, thieves, etc. He even attended parties.
However, I do not recall anywhere in scripture where Jesus partook in their “sinful” activities. I references a few examples in my comment above.
Remember that marriage is a celebration of two people coming together to legally commit their lives to one another in love. When you attend a wedding, you are doing so to celebrate the event with the couple. You also endorse the event by your attendance (if any person objects to this couple being joined in marriage, speak now or forever hold your peace).
Therefore as a Cristian who believes homosexuality is a sin, I could not attend such an event. And if one or both of the gay people were truly my friends, they’d understand my religious convictions.
Anna, I’m not sure I can answer your question with out confusing you. or myself.
Just because you go does not mean you agree, or partake in what is happening.
John Shore can go to a gay wedding. He may think the couple is going to hell and god hates them and blah, blah. But if he is only witnessing it, then it isnt the same thing as getting up there and Marrying the couple. He’s observing, not partaking- or agreeing or disagreeing.
I can go to a bar. (Which I have occasionally) But being in the bar doesnt mean I agree with people drinking, or even that I am drinking. It means I was there. Observing.
Or you can go to church. And you can merely observe. You dont have to listen, or sing, or even stay awake. You can just be there. Observing.
John says time and time again that god is all about free will. He gives us free will to make these choices on our own. We dont all have to make the same choices or agree with the choices that others make. But we do have to accept that we cant force our choices on others, and we have to respect the choices others make. Regardless of what happens.
I hope that made sense and answered your question.
(And no John this does not mean I believe in god, I’m merely listening to you and paying a small amount of attention…)
@Rachel Cabal - C’mon, Rachel - you are kind of grasping at straws there aren’t you?
I did not say I would not attend an event that had “sinful” people in it. If that were the case, I wouldn’t even be able to attend any event, go anywhere or even hang out with myself now would I?
John,
Given my relatives, I might get such an invite.
I’d have to let them know I’m not endorsing such unions but I’m not their judge - a higher power is that has a history of condemning such actions like those of Sodom and Gomorrah’s residents, etc…
I’d still go because I love my kin - especially when I can bug the heck out of them.
Course I couldn’t go if they decide to use a Wiccan minister - then we’ve got a problem.
I mean, that’s when the whole event goes to hell.
-Sam
arlywn - you’ve gone to a bar? I’ll pray for you. David - I hear you. Really I do - But - Well, I guess I just see weddings in a different light. So, am I endorsing sin (smoking dope is technically illegal here) by going to my neighbour’s get-together or just deceitfully opening channels of communication for a later stab at their conversion?
Does 1 Corinthians 5:9-12(a) apply here?
Makarios- what are you praying for me for? Do you know what you find in bars?
Normal people who like to drink with their friends instead of alone. People who like to shoot pool. Or gamble on the game machines. Bartenders with a sense of humor. The have better selections in soda than the fast food restraunts. Plus food. They have white chedder popcorn thats becoming really hard to find. They actually card people, unlike the little gas stations that claim too. If youre too drunk they’ll take your keys away so you cant drive drunk. Most everybody is friends. If you need to sell something- someone almost always wants it. If you need it, someone has it. If your car breaks down there are back yard mechanics around every table. People give out stuff they’ve grown in their gardens.
Zuccine is 1.70 a lb at the grocery store. I get it for free from a guy my mom knows through a bar.
when my car broke down several months ago, a guy came and fixed it…. for a case of beer. We met him in a bar too.
Hell, when we moved last year. We had at least 3 people help us and they were all friends from the bar.
They have the best frekking fish frys in town, and people regularly bring their families.
I dont drink, I’m only 19, but I’ve been around some of these people since I was 8- 9. So I dont know what bars you go to, but the ones down here have the southern hospitality down pat.
1 Corinthians 5:9-12 is Paul dealing with a sexually immoral person in the Corinth church (dude slept with his father’s wife).
It is a good portion of scripture that reminds us that as Christians we can and should have relationships with people that do not know Christ. In fact, that is the best way to reach them.
David W.,
I appreciate your comments, but I think there is a difference between attending and participating. People who go to drug parties or orgies, go to participate, not simply attend, and I can certainly understand that you wouldn’t want to do that.
I don’t want to put words into John’s mouth, but I think his dilema was regarding attending. If he were asked to officiate or participate actively in the wedding, I think it would be a different question, but attending is not an active act of condoning, rather it’s an act of love for the people involved.
This leads me to believe that Arlywn has the right approach about attending. Don’t shut people out because you don’t approve. Be there for them so that they know that you love them, even if you think that they are wrong. If you turn your back and not go, they will only be hurt and won’t be open to anything you have to offer them. Through your grace, they may learn a thing or two.
Disclaimer: I’m not Christian, but a big fan of certain Christian’s - like John and my wife - and I support gay marriage. My comments are not about religion, they are about how people respond to being loved or shunned. This may not be irrelevant to a theological debate, but as John said, “Jesus would much prefer I put my love into action.” I think that would be more effective.
Are we not all glad that on judgement day, we will all stand b-4 God almighty for ourselves and noboby will be there but me & God..Love ya All have a wonderful evening. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
oh… well if we’re going that way. Have fun in heaven Anna. I’ll kick it with Satan and my friends in hell.
[...] post with a very interesting question caught my attention today. John Shore asked the question, “What would Jesus do if invited to a gay wedding?” While he [...]
My wife reminds me that if I have to tell people I’m joking then maybe I’m not that funny. arlywn, I was joking about praying for you because you’ve been in a bar. On the other hand, I was bartender back in the days before I became a Christian. I know all about how wonderful that world is. No thanks. Gotta go. Sorry if I’ve offended - Anna. I know your heart is in the right place. See ya there.
oh… sorry makarios.. I’m used to people being serious…
Can we really know what Jesus would do? He probley would pray
for this gay couple, that they would repent,be forgiven. Turn from their sinful life styles.
But, we really do not know what Jesus would do, after all He is God.
Those who say that Jesus loved the sinner but not the sin are indeed right but would Jesus have given credence to the sinful practice? No! When Jesus hung out with the sinners it was not hanging out in the same way we would see it. He went there because he was invited to teach and to tell them the good news. Those sinners he was in contact with were transformed by his presence. The occasions were about Jesus and not the celebration of sin.
Bringing division and a metaphorical sword may be illustrated best by Jesus’ actions in cleansing the temple of the poseurs of His day. The Gospel’s descriptions of His actions there exemplify very well the way Jesus went about separating the sheep from the goats. And I think it informs my remarks about what Jesus would do today at a gay wedding. I am quite confident of this much: He wouldn’t just let it go.
Allen
Go, John. Be with your friends, celebrate their love and happiness, and remember the love and happiness you share with your own wife and family.
I don’t know what your personal opinion of the anti-homosexual laws in the OT are. Perhaps you grapple with them. Perhaps not. But I recommend you treat them all the same. Is the law telling you not to east shellfish silly? Is the law saying you must stone disobedient children to death foolish? Well then so is the one about homosexuality.
But that’s only my evil, godless opinion on the matter.
You’ve been invited to an event that celebrates the love of people you care about. If you can’t get into heaven because of that, do you really want to go to that heaven?
I think you should go. Gay is a sin and it is a sin that is open to the world to see. Would you not tell your kids you loved them if they lied to you or if they lusted??? Those are sins too just not as visible as being gay. To be like Jesus we need to love one another! So go love on your friends and support them but just continue to be the light in their lives.
Ross, Danny, Anna, David Wallace, and Allen: While I certainly understand and deeply respect the reason for which you’re able to so readily claim such ringing clarity on the question at hand, can I ask if either of you actually has any dear gay or lesbian friends? Is there any chance at all that you actually WOULD get invited to a gay wedding? If not, then, to be fair, you’ve got to admit that you may not be in the best position to assess or evaluate the whole of the dynamics necessarily at play here.
I’m reminded of a time in the late ’70’s when Paul Simon felt moved to defend Linda Rondstadt against some flak she was getting for agreeing to play a concert in South Africa’s Sun City. I think it was Joey Ramone who was leading the criticism against Rondstadt.
“It’s easy enough for Joey Ramone to say he wouldn’t play Sun City,” said Simon. “But it’s not like anyone’s ASKED Joey Ramone to play Sun City, have they?”
If you don’t have any gay people in your life whom you love with all the passion and devotion that you feel for anyone you love, then you must trust that you’re missing something vital that’s at the very heart and soul of this conversation.
Not exactly on-topic, but why do people always ask, “What would Jesus do?”, as if He were gone? He’s still in it, folks. He’s here and He’s now. Wake up and smell the perfumed oil.
The more satisfying question, perhaps, is what is Jesus doing? Right now? In this case (in every case), He is giving John (and all of us) yet another blessed opportunity to show character, and to grow in understanding, and to love as He loves.
If EVER there is a time to extend to others the grace the Lord shows you, it is now. Which is kind of a silly statement, because it is no more now than it is any other time, and it is, always.
GO, John. GO to these weddings. Love your friends. Maintain these relationships. Pray for Jesus to show you what He has for you in this, and then watch for Him and follow His lead.
But I’m preachin’ to the choir, because it is clear to me that you do this — you LIVE this — on a daily basis anyway!
John,
While the miles between us kept you from joining my beloved and I at our recent wedding (more specifically the third reprisal) I would remind you that it’s never too late to express your love through a generous wedding gift. Please refer to the online gift registry for Home Depot.
John, since you already call them friends, you apparently have developed a relationship with them. If your friends know about your position in Christ, then it is very possible that they will sense the supreme reason for your participation, is one that originates from your love for them. To borrow from one of the scripture verses you quoted from Matthew 23:24, I believe you would be showing mercy towards them, looking through the choices they are making, and displaying a Christ-like attribute of love toward them. God’s commandment is for us to love one another, not to be their judge. He doesn’t command us to judge them, for He is the only one that is qualified to do that. And as for our part in loving others, no matter what choices they have made, God can certainly help us love them if we ask Him to.
Just came online….the dialogue has been good! I trust the words of Jesus! In the sermon on the mount [matthew 5-7] He told the crowd and the desciples, whom he had just chosen, that they were the light of the world and they were the salt of the earth. Light is the most effective when it is in a dark place… He took us out of the darkness only to put us back into it, to change the darkness with the light of unconditional love….just as God does. Salt means ‘integrity’! I think that calls for pure motives on our part.
Carry on John, with loving your neighbour……even the gay ones. God hasn’t called us to fix people, He’s called us to love them.
Anita, may I just say, you totally crack me up, every dang post you write
I’d totally go. I think Jesus would, too. I mean, I think he does in a way, being God, who is omnipresent and all. Right with you there, John. Did I use enough commas??
did they have gay wedding in jesus’s time? cause if they didnt, then how do we know what he would have done? I mean for all we know he couldva been like “OMG!!!!! A Wedding? No way, I’m not doing formal occasions!”
(I mean that literally Candace, though I know you believe he is still here.)
Mercy Triumphs over judgment!!!!
Hey, all I wanna know is, why on earth did I preface my comment with “Not exactly on-topic, but …”, and then proceed to be completley on-topic? THAT is the bigger mystery to me right now.
John, I would pray about it and let the Holy Spirit lead you in the right direction. If you feel convicted about going then there is something wrong. That is how I go through questionable situations. If I pray about it and don’t find peace with doing whatever it is, then I don’t go. The Holy Spirit WILL convict you if it is the wrong thing to do. God Bless.
Candace,
I blush, but seriously sometimes a girl, particularly a gay one, has to laugh. The other options could well involve jail time.
As to what would Jesus do, well….I guess the best indication I’d have of how he’d respond to a gay marriage is how he responded to all those who were considered sinners or unclean by the religious zealots of the time; which along with prostitutes and adulterers included those who didn’t keep the full letter of the Jewish law, those who by their profession touched dead bodies or worked with animals and animal skins considered impure. In other words, social outcasts.
And how did Jesus respond to them? He accepted their invitation to dinner. He entered into table fellowship which in first-century Palestine was an intimate encounter and was so offensive to the Pharisees because in eating with them Jesus was identifying himself with those with whom he ate; he was willing to “contaminate” himself with sinners and social outcasts.
And at least as I read the Scriptures, I don’t notice any mention that Jesus demanded that all those eating with him change by the time dessert was served. The tax collector remained a tax collector, the leather smith continued to skin and prepare animal hides and yes, there’s every chance that the prostitute turned a trick the next day rather than starve. But I have no doubt, that while the externals of their life might well have remained the same, their hearts were changed forever because love, grace, compassion, kindness, and mercy never fail to leave their mark on a human life.
Did Jesus tell them to change their ways? Did he call them to repentance while passing the bread? I don’t know for sure but I suspect not because there’s every reason to believe Jesus trusted that if those at the table with him needed to change that God was more than capable of doing so in God’s own time, and for the moment the thing those people most needed before him was simply to spend time in his presence, which was to encounter in a radical and amazing way the grace and love of God.
Our neighboor is gay, and our friend. While we don´t really hang out, we talk through the fence and he comes over every once in a while for coffee. He knows where we stand and we know where he stands.
We respect each other.
I tend to agree with David´s posting. I doubt we would attend a gay wedding, that would imply giving it our stamp of approval.
Jesus loves them, that does not change.
And THAT, my dear Anita, is as well as I have ever heard it said.
I have nothing to add but a great big AMEN!!!
Well, and thank you.
Oh, and God bless, too.
John,
My wife and I were just talking about a different gay-based story when I came across your post in my Blog Surfer. So, we talked about this, too.
We don’t find it an easy question, but I think we’d go. We will continue to show our love for the friends. We don’t particularly celebrate the relationship or the union, but we would honor the friends and our care for them.
In my case … I had friends who wouldn’t come to our wedding, because I’m previously divorced. Two of them don’t speak to me anymore, largely because of what they consider to be my adultery. Their decision did nothing to dissuade me, of course, but it did a lot to hurt our relationships.
To the nay-sayers … is this position based on homosexuality itself, or just wicked marriages? Would you attend a wedding of a couple that had been living together for the past 8 years, as long as they were good heterosexual fornicators?
Jesus showed a lot of love, grace, compassion, and freedom. I think that “legalism sucks” was one of His big themes. I would argue that he’d go, John, and that you should do the same. I’m sure that your friends know where you stand, and who you are. To refuse to show your love is to send a message that you think God doesn’t have any love for them.
I’m curious. Have any here ever attended a straight wedding that troubled them for some reason. Perhaps you felt like the couple weren’t emotionally and spiritually ready to be married. Maybe the groom is in clear violation of Jesus words in Matthew 19:9 (”I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery”), or maybe the bride was pregnant prior to the wedding, or one is a believer and the other an unbeliever or some other objection, no matter how grave or trivial. Are the only weddings you’ve ever attended been ones you fully approve of? I’ll admit it. I have.
I also think it might be helpful to re-examine what it means to be a guest at a wedding. The role of the guest is to be a witness to the marriage and the vows exchanged between the two people. It’s not about approving of the marriage but of witnessing it and then being a voice that can hold that couple to account in the future for the promises they made to one another and to God. To be able to say to the husband or wife with a wandering eye, “Hey my friend, I was there on the day you promised to be faithful to your husband/wife and as a witness I’m here to remind you that what you said that day mattered”; or to encourage the one who’s thinking of calling it quits after a rough patch, “On your wedding day I heard you give your promise to be there through good times and bad. How can I help you as a friend to honor your word?” We’ve defined being guests at a wedding to being celebrants at a party but going to a wedding comes with responsibility; not the obligation to judge and approve but to witness and give account in the future if account is needed.
It’s both a joyful and solemn thing to attend a wedding but I see nothing in Scripture that would warrant one refraining from attending based on disapproval but instead it cycles right back to Jesus’ continual pattern of practicing table fellowship.
Okay, Wickle said with much more clarity what I was trying to say.
Nevermind me
JOHN,
EVERYTIME GOD HAS APPEARED TO US HE HAS BEEN A GUEST AT A “GAY WEDDING.”
WE ARE NOT STRAIGHT…AT LEAST NOT SINCE THE FALL.
REALLY THINK ABOUT IT…
WHO THEN ARE WE TO JUDGE.
Jesus was a fisher of men, bringing sinners to repentance. I have a relative who is gay, I don’t support his choice; but in your situation I would use the opportunity to share the gospel and how a close relationship with Jesus has impacted your life.
I also have friends who are atheist, agnostic, etc.; religious conversations are always exciting. Our duty is to spread the good news of the gospel. If you want to be a fisher of men, you have to plant yourself in places other then “the church” to be successful. How can we bring sinners to repentance if we only surround ourselves with fellow Christians?
I would go. But I would also let them know where I stand on the issue. And seeing as your friends already, they already know your view. But think of it from their side as well. Some people said you would be condoning the sin. But have any of you ever gone to a wedding where the couple lived together before, or even simply had sex before the wedding? That’s sin. So should I have not gone to my friend’s wedding because of that? Or if they served alcohol, should I not go to that wedding either because other’s might perceive it as wrong? If my friend is getting married, I’m going to support them and be there for them…regardless of whatever sin they might have committed before or after the wedding. So go…who knows, maybe you’ll be the only Christian friend there.
It depends whether you consider yourself a representative of Christianity everywhere and for all time, or their friend. As a friend, perhaps it is better to just focus on their happiness. Marriage is a huge thing, regardless of whoever the other party is. It’s a different matter altogether for the Pope for example. It would totally ruin his credibility if he’s seen attending a gay wedding. But then again, I doubt the Pope has gay friends.
Take care.
John - you have opened a huge can of worms here, huh? I don’t wanna get preachy so allow me to say this: I think the love, grace, and compassion of Jesus should lead you there.
@John Shore - Regarding your questions as to whether I have any gay people in my life and if the possibility exists that I might be invited to their wedding, the answer is yes.
I have two family members I love dearly who are gay, one of which we visit every year while we are in the Bay Area on business. My wife and I love him as well as his live in boyfriend of many years. We spend much time together and always have enjoy our visit.
They know we are Christians and view homosexuality as a sin but also that we respect their right to live the way they do.
However, if either of my relatives (both of which live in California) decided to get married, I wouldn’t attend the ceremony because of my reasons I mentioned before in this discussion. I think they would understand as they know my religious convictions.
Taryn:
“But I would also let them know where I stand on the issue.”
To what purpose? In case someone is there recording it so you can make sure no one thinks you support gay marriage? Or because you think they’ll say “Oh! You’re right! How stupid of us, let’s cancel this wedding!”?
Um, last time I looked, fornication is a sin. How many heterosexual weddings have you gone to where you know that the happy couple had been sexually active prior to their wedding? Seriously, how many?
When your invitation showed up in the mail, did you open it and say to yourself: “They’re fornicators, I can’t go to that wedding,” or did you pull up their registry at Target and look for a gift?
Is attending a homosexual wedding any different? Should we take a stand against all of that sin by not attending? If you say you’re not going to attend the homosexual wedding because it condones the sin, then apply that reasoning across the board to the hetero wedding too. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite!
And once again, I’m reminded of the political candidate here in West Virginia who, when asked if he could draw an ethical distinction between a monogamous Gay couple and a promiscuous Gay man, said, “Sure! One is bad, and the other is worse.”
Not a good value judgment.
I think we can all pretty much agree about what the Bible says in terms of rape, incest, adultery, inhospitality, and ritual sexual practices in pagan temples. But when it come to two compatible adult Gay individuals who have made a solemn commitment to love and support one another in the presence of family and friends …. well, I just can’t imagine there being two different standards based on sexual orientation. So sue me.
It is not my desire to dismiss the religious convictions of people like Ross, Danny, Anna, David Wallace, and Allen. But I still have to wonder why we offer so much support to Straight couples when they date, and get engaged, and get married, and build lives together in the context of monogamy and commitment, and we think this is a GOOD thing … and yet for Gay couples to do exactly the same is somehow a BAD thing. If you’re Straight it’s all lovely and wonderful, but if you’re Gay it’s just wrong, wrong, wrong.
Me, despite the fact that I am not a religious person, I still am quite old fashioned when it comes to love and commitment. I think people today do not take marriage NEARLY as seriously as they ought to. Too many people, Gay and Straight, rush into weddings with stars in their eyes while not completely grasping the fact that this is SUPPOSED to be a lifetime commitment, no something one just goes along with for as long as it suits. All my friends, Gay and Straight, know how strongly I feel about this. I’m not going to be judgmental about people who are just dating, but MARRIAGE is supposed to be a much more serious matter.
Having said all this, John, I would encourage you to attend your friends’ weddings. And when you get a chance to talk to the lucky couple before or after the ceremony, by all means express to them how important commitment is, because I think we can all agree that heartbreak and betrayal and pain are among the GREATEST of evils.
Your pal,
CHUCK A.
It’s so easy to spot topics that are sensitive. I mean when John wrote about the houseboats or the plastic furniture, there were maybe 10 posts on each. Surely we couldn’t be as passionate about things like that, but wow.
I’m not going to claim that I know the right or wrong answer to whether or not a righteous person should be seen in an unrighteous setting. However, I have a friend that is gay and we hang out weekly. I wrestle with what it means to not be yolked with unbelievers, but I think it means don’t find yourself participating in their sin, (in this case, don’t be gay).
My friend knows how I feel about a homosexual couple getting married. We had a debate once about what’s so wrong with gay marriage. The outcome was that I couldn’t agree with a couple that insisted to have a minister officiating. Because that’s perverting our faith. But if they have a civil ceremony, I couldn’t disagree on that, no one was asking God to bless the relationship. Aye? So, seeing as my friend and I are more than just accquaintances, how could I withold my presence from an occasion like that? It’s not like he’s asking me to be gay or to get up and say a prayer or anything. I think it would be a tremendous testimony of God’s love to go, not to condone, but to just say, “Hey I love you, man.”
My friend came to church with me a few times when I invited him and he knows that he can always come, no matter what’s in his life. And maybe someday, God will touch his life and open his heart. Or maybe not. That’s up to God.
The question is John, what are you? I know that people have relatives that chose this life style as well as friends. But are you letting them know this is not something you agree with, but because you have God’s love for them you will not cut ties. By allowing your light to shine, maybe in time it will light the road for them to see God’s true creation. That creation is Jesus the Light of the World, and in him is not Gays or Lesbian,or Homosexual nor effeminate as the Bible states. 1Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulteres, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
Are we forgetting the whole gist of this issue? God loves everyone and want them to come to Him, but he does not endorse homosexual marriage.
The Bible does not say “Search out your own salvation according to the social standards of today and whatever you think is right…”
It’s not our personal interpretation of “What Would Jesus Do?” according to today’s social standards where black has become white and white has become black or various shades of gray. We need to apply it directly to scripture and understand what Jesus would do according to God’s word.
Attendance at a marriage that is not supported by God’s word implies support of homosexual marriage, not lack of love for someone we might consider personal friends.
Those who don’t know Christ and have chosen a lifestyle that is in direct contradiction to God’s word need the Savior. Why compromise or confuse your principles with today’s society rather than what the Bible has to say? You can still love that person and pray for them. Homosexuality doesn’t make someone a bad person, but it does separate them from God because of their sin. Pray for them, love them, but don’t attend the marriage.
Why would we endorse that? You can still be supportive of them as a person and in recognition of their need for Christ without compromising God’s word or your Christian principles. Seek the Lord and his guidance, not the words of man.
Don’t mistake changing social mores with biblical mandates. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is sin. While we love the sinner and hate the sin, we shouldn’t be confused with TV images of homosexuality as a normal acceptable lifestyle in God’s eyes…and accept that as long as it is a committed and loving relationship, that makes it OK?
Marriage is an institution set by God between a man and a woman. What kind of precedent does that set for our children and the message it gives them for future generations?
Be loving and kind to your friends Gay or straight who don’t know the Lord because you will never lead them to the Savior if they don’t see a glimpse of Him in you. Going to support a homosexual marriage is not the way to do it.
By all means, don’t every forget the importance of commitment…to our Savior for time and eternity. We should base all our relationships from our commitment to Him. He set the standard for our relationships and commitments, and none of them involved homosexual relationships.
John, I applaud you. Looking past the sin, and to your friend, who invited you to a civil event out of love and honor. You do great justice to Jesus when you help others. Remember, what you do to the least of these, you do for Him. We are called to be among the world. Not to enclose ourselves in our own little community, helping none other than those like ourselves.
As someone that does have gay friends, I struggle with this. If two people love each other, and have a committed, caring relationship, I see no problems with them joining in what, at the end of the day, is a civil ceremony.
Also, I think you’re right on another note. By invoking the “Woes” passages, you’re pointing out how hypocritical we (as a society) are by doing things like banning gay marriage. Marriage is a legal standing in this day and age. That’s not to say that marriage isn’t something the church doesn’t desire. It does. My marriage is a sacrament before God and I treat it as such. But for my gay friends, it’s just a legal right and social standing that they too deserve.
And yes, as a matter of fact, I do live in California.
Just to provide the perspective of a real, live gay person…when my partner and I had our church wedding back in 2002, (that would be the one I finished paying for in 2004) I invited all my siblings and parents. All are conservative Christians and believe unwaveringly that homosexuality is a sin, as did I for many years. In inviting them I told them I wanted them there because I loved them and they were my family and that were they to attend I wouldn’t take that as a change of conviction on their part but just that they were being there as my family on a day that was deeply important to me. My siblings all came. One walked me down the aisle. One helped arrange the table flowers at the rehearsal. One squirmed uncomfortably through the entire event and when I said “I know this is hard for you and it means the world to me that you’re here” answered by saying “Youre my sister and I love you. Where else would I be?”
They were there for me on that day and I will always remember that with the greatest fondness though it did nothing to change their view on homosexuality nor did I expect it to. After the wedding my friends didn’t ask me if in coming to my wedding it meant they’d changed their minds. What they commented on was the quality of my siblings love to have put aside their personal convictions and discomfort and be there for me on my wedding day. Many of these friends weren’t Christians and so the message they received about Christians was a positive one.
And no, my parents didn’t come nor acknowledge the day at all. That was painful to me even while I understood. Over the years there have been good times and not so good times with my family over this. Times when painful words have erupted and walls temporarily built between us but always we come back to being family and loving each other despite the places where we think the other is wrong. One of the greatest gestures of love Ive ever experienced in my life came to me from my mom a few months after my dads death three years ago. She wrote a very short note. In it she apologized for some very hurtful words she’d said at the time of my engagement to my beloved. And then she wrote “You know how I feel about the whole thing but I want you to know Im happy you have someone in your life that you love and someone who loves you. I’m happy you have a church that loves and appreciates you. I love you Honey.”
My beloved and I spend Christmases with my huge family. When I talk to them on the phone they ask how D is doing and tell me to tell her hello for them. Mom sends her birthday cards each year. My family doesn’t approve of homosexuality. They just love me.
That’s one human story in response to Johns question.
To those who would not attend, would you attend the wedding of two people who you believe were not Christians or who were involved in some other activity that you believed to be sin?
There are many comments, I am sorry if someone has addressed this.
Thanks John for bringing up the tough stuff.
Wow. Lots of discussion. A lot of which I’ve come to expect coming from the church–lots of hatred masked as “love the sinner, hate the sin.” But also a lot of surprisingly open-minded and gracious comments. It was encouraging to read that I’m not alone in my views…
Let me just say this, your presence, John, is an incredibly strong witness to your love to your friends, in Christ. They’re watching you–seeing whether or not you love them as you say you do–as you say God does.
I’ve been involved in a similar dilemma: whether or not to openly and actively support my friend in his drag. It’s been an interesting road, but I’ve decided that he needs my support and encouragement far more than he needs my condemnation. I recently went to see him perform and it only strengthened my desire to support him and encourage him to follow his dreams (which, include stepping beyond drag)
While I know that my choices are not going to be understood by many in the church at large, I also stand confident in my relationship with Christ, and my conviction that it is my task to show these men Christ’s love. It’s not my job to change them–that belongs to God alone. I simply seek to offer them healing and love.
To those who have used the example of attending the wedding of a couple that have fornicated (had sex) prior to the wedding and questioned how this is any different than a gay wedding, I will say this:
If you wish to argue along those lines, then my defense would be that two fornicators getting married are “making things right” whereas a gay couple getting married is making nothing right. One act is a correction while the other is a continuance in the sin.
Therefore it is a poor example indeed because it is not the same scenario.
thereisnogray, your analogy doesn’t work. A heterosexual couple who is getting married is doing the right thing and puting an end to their fornication. A gay couple who is getting “married” is still sinning. The bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin - an abomination - in the eyes of God. I don’t understand this, but it is God’s word and I accept it. Of course we should love all people as God does, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t have the right to believe that what they are doing is wrong.
3 words: Water into wine.
I have two homosexual children. A 25-year old woman and a 19-year old man. My children grew up in church, had christian education and acknowledged Jesus as Lord. I also have to two heterosexual children. The youngest is a godly young man who serves the Lord with all his heart.
It is difficult to accept, my wife and I have been embarrassed by some of the antics that come with the choices my children have made. They know that we love them unconditionally; BUT, we DO NOT approve the life-style. We call it sin, because that’s what it is. We would never attend a wedding. That would be mocking God and the union he calls HOLY. We will never cheapen something God blesses. Some will call us “homophobic, out-of-touch, insensitive” you name it.
It has to be done in love. We have not bought into the liberal lies that are so common place at the home state of this author. We don’t cherry-pick the scriptures for a socially acceptable middle ground. The answer is best written then followed up with a call. It goes something like this: Dear _____ we love you so much. You are so special to us. It is with great disappointment that we have to inform you that our belief in God and his infallible word doesn’t permit us to celebrate your marriage union. God’s word is clear on this topic, it is an abomination in His eyes. God loves you dearly and hates all sin. We understand that much of society views this differently, our decision is not hate based nor is it a reflection of who you’ve chosen for a partner. It is based on our acknowledgement of the scriptures as God’s commands to us as to how to live our life and what is acceptable to Him. It is with great disappointment that we are informing you that we cannot attend your wedding. Our prayers are with you.
David- Marriage doesn’t “make it right.” Asking for God to forgive the sin and then turning from it makes it right. What I am getting at is that we seem to look past some sin when it’s convenient to us, but other sin is a huge stinking deal. Sin is sin. Is one greater than another? If two raging alcoholics want to get married, but their entire relationship is based on being drunk together all the time, should we support it? I’m not equating homosexuality with drunkeness, simply trying to make the point that if we are going to turn a focused laser beam on homosexuality and marriage, then why don’t we apply the same standard to all sin? I say it’s because we have the plank in our eye, but we still try to get the speck out of our neighbor’s eye.
Heather. I agree that it is a sin-an abomination-in the eyes of God. I was trying to raise the bar and extend the debate. Please see above as additional comments.
In this day and age, many churches are happily marrying anyone who shows up at the door and says they want to get married–regardless of their relationship with Christ and any unrepentant sin in their lives. What if the Gay couple decides that they love each other and want to be married and agree that they will never have sexual relations again so long as they can live together and celebrate their love and affection for each other? What do we do now?
“To those who have used the example of attending the wedding of a couple that have fornicated (had sex) prior to the wedding”
I honestly want to know the world you people live in where people don’t have sex until they get married. Because, unless I’m terribly blind, that isn’t the world I live in.
That being said, I’m being considered to officiate the wedding of a gay friend of mine. I hope they pick me. Can’t wait.
I guess we live in different worlds then, don’t we?
Plainly.
I’m just glad that homosexual couples are finally being allowed to legally marry.
thereisnogray “What if the Gay couple decides that they love each other and want to be married and agree that they will never have sexual relations again so long as they can live together and celebrate their love and affection for each other? What do we do now?”
Your argument does not hold water.
It is the sex that makes it a homosexual act. Therefore two people of the same sex who live together, are committed to one another as friends and do not take it to the stage of sex are not homosexual. They are very good friends.
There are a lot of comments on this one, and I have only had time to read about half, so perhaps someone has already shared my thoughts. This does present a dilemma, as on one hand we love our gay friends and want to show respect for them, and on the other hand we love God and want to show respect for His law. On one hand we know Jesus taught us by word and example to not judge others, and on the other hand we are instructed to “Stand Ye in Holy Places”.
I personally have many dear friends who are homosexual, some are married, some are considering marriage. I don’t agree with their practices, I don’t agree believe that their marriage is recognized by God, nor should be recognized legally. However I do love them as brothers and sisters and children of God. I know that Jesus does as well. I have never been asked to attend one of these weddings (yet) however, if and when I am, I would first do what John has done. I would turn to scripture, I would study out for myself the teachings of Jesus and his prophets. And then I would kneel and pray and ask the Lord what He would like me to do in that individual situation. The wonderful thing about facing any of life’s difficult decisions is that each of us are entitled to personal answers, direction and inspiration from God through the Holy Spirit (James 1:5, Job 32:8, etc)
@Morse - I dated my wife for 6 months, asked her to marry me and then was engaged for another six months before being married. In all that time, we did not have sex. We waited.
That was 17 years ago but I also know many people today that wait.
True it is a rarity but it still does occur. And as to what world we live in - a very dark one my friend.
First of all, I was not in any way disparaging people who wait until marriage to have sex. Merely expressing that it is quite a rarity these days.
“a very dark one my friend.”
Strange how different two peoples outlooks can be.
Certainly the world is not perfect. But the world I see forming is one with more acceptance and freedom, more love and caring, full of more education and the search for knowledge and truth.
The fact that John and many others want to show their love for their friends in spite of their dogma proves that, and gives me a great deal of hope.
I guess for me, it’s about salt and light. If you can bring Jesus light to the world without being near/in the darkness, more power to ya.
God loves me (regardless of my sinful state) because he made me. Does He want me to stay that way? No way!
John,
It’s probably a good think I get these the next day.
I feel like I tuned into a blog and stumbled onto a lynching. It is a revelation to see the arguments one way or another. Anita and Wickle seemed to capture the question and the answer best.
Jesus would go, celebrate the friendship and let his actions speak for him. Jesus wouldn’t condone sin, but he would not call a tactical nuclear air strike on it either. Isn’t he the same guy that changed water into wine? He wouldn’t want people to get drunk, but having wine at a wedding celebration was good stuff in his mind. And remember that encounter with the prostitute at dinner and the Mary Magdelaine thingy too.
When we try to make God human with human characteristics, we limit him to our flawed perceptions. God tells us he doesn’t think like we think or do what we would do. And the love part is unconditional love, not flawed like ours.
@Morse - Guess it depends on what lense you are looking through. I am generally a very positive and optimistic person but as a Christian, I see the world getting darker and darker. Just turn on the local news! Or even compare the local news now to say 20 years ago. Big difference at least in this country.
There’s more crime, more hate, more racial prejudice, not to mention how unstable the Middle East is and global warming. I could go on but I digress.
If you can’t see these things, then maybe you just aren’t looking.
David W:
Hmmm, 20 years ago you say?
Let’s look at what was happening in 1988, shall we?
January 15 - In Jerusalem, Israeli police and Palestinian protestors clash at the Dome of the Rock; several police and at least 70 Palestinians are injured.
March 16 - The Halabja poison gas attack is carried out by Iraqi government forces.
March 16 - Iran-Contra Affair: Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North and Vice Admiral John Poindexter are indicted on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States.
October 5 - Thousands riot in Algiers, Algeria against the National Liberation Front government; by October 10 the army has killed and tortured about 500 people in crushing the riots.
December 2 - A cyclone in Bangladesh leaves 5 million homeless and thousands dead.
December 7 - In Armenia an earthquake 6.9 on the Richter scale kills nearly 25,000, injures 15,000 and leaves 400,000 homeless.
December 21 - Pan Am Flight 103 is blown up by Libyan terrorists over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing a total of 270 people.
And those are just bits and pieces.
It seems to me that the world is pretty much the same today.
However, there’s more racial acceptance (a black man is running for president and is actually the frontrunner), more acceptance of homosexuals (they’re getting their right to marry) and I honestly don’t remember the last time there was a riot in a major US city.
Is the world perfect? By no means. But it is certainly on par, if not better off, than 20 years ago.
Every generation thinks the younger generation is worse than they were. And every generation of Christians thinks the world is coming to an end.
And yet, the world keeps not ending, even if the gays are getting married.
David, you miss my point. If we remove the sin (sex) part, do you go to the wedding? I’m trying to figure out what we have the problem with. Is it the sin (sexual acts), or the being married? For example, God says don’t be unequally yoked, yet we have all been to weddings where a Christ follower and a non-beleiver have tied the knot. Did anyone stand up and say: “I object to this marriage because they will be unequally yoked”? If you are a believer/Christ-follower, do you go to that wedding? Why or why not?
There were a whole bunch of people that said they couldn’t go to the wedding because it was the marriage of people who were sinful and keep sinning. Why don’t we apply the same test in everything? I would argue that if a person is not a homosexual, that they will freely point the finger and say it’s wrong, but if they’ve had sex prior to marriage, they will say it’s OK. No one seems to want to talk about the hypocrite part because that knife cuts a little too close to home.
I do believe Jesus would show love for homesexuals if he walked the earth today. I don’t think he would treat them any different than a straight person. However, I do not think Jesus would put on the appearance of supporting their union by attending it. A wedding is a spiritual union and a celebration between a man and a woman, not those of the same gender. In my mind, attending shows approval of the union, not attending shows the opposite. If Jesus had attended a gay wedding in the bible and he said nothing but celebratory words, where would we be today on this issue. But he didn’t.
@thereisnogray - You wrote, “If we remove the sin (sex) part, do you go to the wedding? ”
Then what is the point of getting married in the first place?
Look, marriage is a God-created thing where His original intention was for a man and a woman to join themselves together and become one.
Unfortunately what is happening in our society today is that people are trying to redefine what “marriage” is. And if it is not a union between one man and one woman, what will it become?
Will people start marrying “anything” they love - a person of same sex, their pet, their computer, a child — you get my point.
Therefore, if God created marriage and limited it to one man and one women, anything else is a perversion and twisting of His original intention, whether there is sex or not.
That being said, I have never heard of a gay marriage where sex was not to be part of the relationship, unless I suppose the couple is so old that sex is only a distant memory for them.
Anita (#48) - great minds think alike, right? Actually, I’m not sure what that has to do with me. I usually rate more like, “Even a stopped clock is right twice per day” (which doesn’t apply to digital clocks).
@David:
“One act is a correction while the other is a continuance in the sin.”
Are you assuming contrition? My two brothers each lived with their girlfriends before marriage. Neither thinks it was wrong, even if they are now married.
But the real point is, What will leave John in the best place to witness to his friends?
DW…I don’t grasp at straws unless they are bendy straws….
Then what ARE you saying. how do you go anywhere or love anyone when you know they’re all sinners. Isn’t the most important thing to love one another? We all have relationship (even with ourselves) where we don’t completely approve of the person. Only Christ’s love overcomes what we as humans feel about each other. Try being the love guru and not the judge guru.
“Will people start marrying “anything” they love - a person of same sex, their pet, their computer, a child — you get my point.”
I’m not even going to point out how grossly offensive it is to compare a homosexual to a pet, computer or child.
But fine, I will answer your hypothetical.
People WILL start marrying their pets, their computers, and children…as soon as those things are considered full and legal citizens who have the ability to sign contracts.
No one is trying to redefine marriage. We’re merely trying to point out that the religious definition of marriage isn’t the legal one. At least not in America.
I hate automatic smileys … That’s supposed to be a 48 after Anita’s name.
Hi David !! am back lets just pray LORD COME QUICKLY!!!!!!! BOY IS THIS A DISCUSSION…..When doing my devotions today, in John ,,Jesus said the world hates me, and they will hate you,so until he comes I will stand firm on his word and serve him and trust him with all my heart !!! And just pray God give all of us your love and conviction in our hearts to whats good in your site and do your will,Daivd we will not be right in alot of people eyes!!! But hold on to what is right in the site of God…Because like I said earlier,,WE ALL WILL STAND B-4 HIM ONE DAY !!! AND ALL I WANT TO HEAR HIM SAY IS ENTER IN MY GOOD AND FAITHFULL SERVANT,,, GOD BE WITH YOU ALL (WE ARE ALL HIS CHILDREN)AND HIS WILL IS NOT ONE TO PERSIH….SATAN IS OUT TO KILL AND DESTORY ALL OF US IF WE LET HIM…
Many of these postings are frightening and a clear indication of just how far we are from God and his word to us. We’ve lost sight of the truth that God laid out for us in the Bible. How can we even think for a moment that Jesus would attend the celebration of something that his father said was an abomination. We can love our homosexual friends without attending a ceremony that goes against our God.
David Wallace, you have made some excellent points. Please keep speaking the truth even when it’s hard for some to accept.
“Many of these postings are frightening”
I agree wholeheartedly. But we are thinking of quite different posts.
@ Morse ,,hello are you a minister?
John, you are correct, my view of gays may change upon knowing them personally, but not my opposition to gay marriage. I guess what 2 adults do between themselves is up to them, but what society ought to endorse and promote is the real question when it comes to legal marriage. And by the way, does God get any say in this? Jesus himself confirmed that from the beginning it was to be man and wife (Matthew 19). Jesus is not in the business of rationalizing sin, although he is in the business of forgiving it. We should follow his example. I don’t think loving someone unconditionally means you sho