[Related post: If My Gay Loved Ones Go To Hell, I'm Going With Them.]
I’m no theologian, but I know one can’t pay attention to the ongoing national conversation about Christianity for too long without running into the “issue” of homosexuality. As I explored a bit in How I Broke The Heart Of My Lesbian Friend, when I suddenly converted to Christianity, I had no idea homosexuality was any kind of issue for Christians at all. I now know differently, of course.
Easily the thought I read and hear most often on the subject from my fellow Christians is that being inclined toward homosexuality is in essence the same as being inclined toward any kind of sinful behavior: it’s the same sort of behavioral sin that all people, in one way or another, must struggle against.
“We’re all sinners,” runs the idea. “We all struggle to overcome our sinful ways. Homosexuality is a sin. Just like all of us must strive to stop behaving sinfully, so the homosexual must strive to overcome his or her sexual predilection. Even if a person is born gay or lesbian — even if homosexuality is genetic — a homosexual must still strive to overcome the ungodly behaviors toward which he or she is inclined, the same as we all must overcome our lower natures in order to realize our highest.”
I personally am fine with that formulation. I know how much time and energy I spend trying to overcome my lower nature. We all struggle with our desire to be better than we are.
I do, though, want to say one thing about this commonplace notion of homosexuality being on par with other human sins. It seems to me that the difference between homosexuality and the other sins people typically fight against — the urge to steal, or lie, or have extramarital affairs, or whatever — is that doing all the other sins objectively and tangibly hurts another person. No matter the moral, ethical or cultural context, it is always wrong to steal or lie, because doing so always hurts another person. But outside of the Biblical injunction against it, whom does homosexual love hurt? Not that the Bible doesn’t count! Of course it does. All I’m saying is that the other sins can be readily understood as wrong without reference to the Bible. That can’t help but mean that homosexuality shouldn’t be grouped together with them. It’s manifestly qualitatively different.
Another thing about the homosexual/Christian “issue” is that it seems to me that we Christians should be clear on the fact that asserting homosexuals should stop acting homosexual necessarily means asserting that they should spend their lives never knowing the loving intimacy with another that straight people enjoy and know to be the best and richest experience in life.
If I were gay, and I lived and behaved in the way most Christians (understandably!) defend as biblical, I would live alone. I wouldn’t wake up every morning next to my wife. I’d never hold hands with my wife. I’d never kiss my wife. I’d never cuddle with my wife. I’d not know the profound pleasure of every day growing older with my wife. Remaining as sinless as possible would, for me, mean never knowing love of the sort that all straight people, Christian or not, understand as pretty much the best thing life has to offer.
Again: I’m not saying that it’s manifestly absurd and even cruel to suggest that everyone within a broad swath of our population spend their lives in emotional and physical isolation. I believe in the tenets of Christianity as ferociously as any Christian in the world. All I’m saying is that, as far as I can tell, we Christians (insofar as we ever speak with one voice) are saying that it is morally incumbent upon homosexuals to spend their lives in emotional and physical isolation. I hear a lot of Christians asserting that gays and lesbians should stop acting like gays and lesbians. But I never hear anyone saying the unavoidable follow-up to that — saying what that really means — which is that gay and lesbian men and women should spend their lives never experiencing what people most commonly mean when they use the word “love.”
But doesn’t the Bible tell us that God is love?
Anyway, this is why I’m not a theologian. Who am I, to even try to understand the great and abiding mysteries of God? All I know is that I want to be the best Christian I can. And I deeply hope that no one minds if, in my struggle to do that, I sometimes bump into questions which, in my desire to learn, I then share with others, confident that one of the best ways for me to grow in my understanding is by gaining access to the understandings of others. Thanks.
*stands and applauds*
THIS is why I come here every day. Most of the time you are intelligent and witty, and then there are these moments where it seems like you are saying everything I’ve ever prayed I’d hear another Christian talking about.
It’s all well and good to express a desire for people to be brought to conviction for their sins- but to tell someone they are sinning based solely off of a personal revelation, when there is no real ethical proof of guilt and no real rational to demonstrate guilt… and add to that the tremendous emotional and relational impact of leaving the “sin”… well…
It’s no wonder people think that some Christians must be insane, based off of the hard stance they take.
Brilliant post. Just brilliant.
Is being alone so as not to sin supposed to be different for a single heterosexual? If I were “homosexual” and Christian, wouldn’t I be bound by the same laws of God? My God tells me I cannot be sexually intimate with another person until I was married to same. If it were illegal for us to marry, am I not also commanded to follow the laws of the country where I live, as long as those laws do not contridict the laws of God? Do I have a right to change God’s laws simply because I feel He created me the way I am?
God created all of us as sexual beings–does that mean that being sexual is the only way to show love to another person? I think not. I think “GOD is love” is a statement with so many deep layers that I will not be able to understand it until I see Him, face to face. In the meantime, I can only take the love my God gave me and try to “pay it forward” as it were.
Thank you, John, for sharing your thoughts, and allowing all of us to share.
“No matter the moral, ethical or cultural context, it is always wrong to steal or lie, because doing so always hurts another person. But outside of the Biblical injunction against it, whom does homosexual love hurt? Not that the Bible doesn’t count!”
Gah! So close! One more step and you’d be an evil heathen like me!
“Do I have a right to change God’s laws simply because I feel He created me the way I am?”
Obviously I’m speaking from a non-Christian point of view, but you certainly have the right to question a law that condemns you for something you cannot control that also causes no harm. Especially if that law is invoked by the same person who you believe made you the way you are.
It’s like genetically engineering someone to be a vegetarian and then punishing them for not eating meat.
*standing and applauding with shush*
Very well said, John. And likewise, I’m glad I’ve kept reading you and understanding you better. I think you are demonstrating through example that not all Christians are trapped in the same narrow box, and that it is possible to people of faith to make good value judgments.
I’m reminded of a time when an extremely conservative Republican named Ben Waldman was running for Congress here in West Virginia. Politically Mr. Waldman occupied roughly the same part of the political spectrum as Alan Keyes. As part of his campaign strategy he would purchase hour-long blocks of time at local radio stations around the state and host his own miniature talk shows to get his message out and respond to questions.
So I took the bait and called his program. I explained that while I found myself becoming gradually more conservative as I grew older, I still found it troubling how candidates like himself constantly expressed such disdain for ALL Gay people. I said, “It’s almost as though you were incapable of drawing a moral and ethical distinction between two Gay men who are in a longtime monogamous relationship and another single Gay man who is promiscuous.”
He responded, “SURE I can! One’s bad and other is worse!”
And for ME, that just doesn’t seem like a very good value judgment.
He respon
Shush: Thanks very much. Seriously. Thank you.
Free: You can’t seriously be saying that you don’t understand the difference between “not sinning” as a single heterosexual and doing the same as a single homosexual. The single hetero CAN get married and then have sex with a loved one and not therby sin; the single homosexual never can. That’s NEVER, verses inevitable. Quite the difference! Lucky for you, isn’t it, that following God’s laws about companionship and mating for life just happened to accord with what also most personally fulfills you? And no one said anything about the only way of showing love is sexual. But you can’t be suggesting that physical intimacy with a lifelong partner isn’t a big part of being in a loving relationship. It’s the FULLEST expression of love between relationship partners. Acting like it’s something easily set aside–like it’s NOT something critically fundamental to a full and fully realized relationship, that it’s not something all humans deeply desire–isn’t reasonable at all.
Morse: Well said.
Chuck: Thank you. Great story. I once went to a celebration for a gay couple’s 50th year together. Again: absent from any kind of Biblical injunction (NOT THAT THERE’S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!), anyone would have been extremely hard pressed to find anything whatoever about that gathering that was anything less than touching and affirming. To deny that is to be as irrational as non-Christians are forever accusing us of being.
John,
While intellectually I can appreciate your dilemma in understanding, you are forgetting some foundational concepts.
We don’t fight our sin nature alone. Not only that, but it is impossible for us to sustain and win such a fight without the supernatural power of God. That struggle we go through with God’s supernatural help is also a means of bonding with the Lord. Relationships of all types are strengthened when they struggle through troubles together.
So the foundation of your argument that the gay/lesbian is left out in the cold alone is erroneous. Just like all the other sins you mentioned, God is supernaturally molding and shaping us as we persevere in overcoming our sins, whether a sin we seem to do naturally or some habit we picked up along the way, God is sculpting us so we can be better ambassadors of Christ, more Christ like in our attitudes and life, more caring, more loving, more compassionate, etc.
Secondly, the concept that I can be something within myself in private, apart from who I am in public, and that my private life has no outward affect on me or on anyone else, denies the inherent spiritual connection of humanity.
There is no escaping the basic dilemma of having to struggle, no matter how unfair it may appear. It is a commonality we share as humans.
John: That’s not true, what you said “Lucky for you, isn’t it, that following God’s laws about companionship and mating for life just happened to accord with what also most personally fulfills you?” You don’t know that about me at all. You have no idea.
I happen to believe that homosexuality is a cultural conditioning and a choice; and I happen to believe God’s word about it. And I happen to believe that some people are meant to be single their whole lives. So? Does that mean I will never have a “full and fully realized relationship” because I choose to obey?
Leif: But you’re not addressing the fact of the qualitative difference I noted between the sins with which we all struggle, and the sin of homosexual love. If my “harm/no harm” distinction just … didn’t make sense to you, or whatever, try thinking of it this way: If you’re straight, EVERY OTHER CONCEIVABLE SIN–and certainly every sin mentioned in the Bible–is something you COULD imagine yourself doing and/or being. You could see yourself with a gambling problem, or a lying problem, or stealing, or greed, or infidelity, etc. But you personally (if you’re straight) will NEVER be tempted by the sin of homosexuality. That means they CAN’T be in the same category of sin as the other sins that DO tempt all people, all the time. Again: qualitatively different. HUGE difference. Treating them all the same is … good old fashioned irrational.
If God didn’t want people to be homosexual why would there be homosexuals in the world?
John,
I understand your qualitative difference and I also understand the loving heart you have. Your compassion for the suffering the homosexual endures is a heart we should all have.
Regardless of any qualitative difference, what is impossible with humanity is not impossible with God. God is able to bring about a healthy, loving, filled life to anyone.
This is a key fundamental belief of the Christian faith. God is able to do the impossible.
By placing the homosexual in a separate category though, denies not only the ability to change, but the opportunity as well. You’re saying if I’m genetically predisposed to gambling I can change, but if I’m genetically predisposed to homosexuality I’m stuck. Because there is a qualitative difference there’s no solution. Thus, since God is a God of love, he wouldn’t genetically predispose someone to being stuck. And thus…and on and on and on.
I disagree with the supposition that a qualitative difference in sin makes it impossible for God to affect a change. Since God is the one who brings about the change, and nothing is impossible with God, then regardless of any qualitative difference the homosexual is not destined to lonely obscurity, loss of love, and unfulfilled sexuality.
If you don’t fundamentally believe, at least theologically, that God can do the impossible then your heartache is completely justified. God has purposely made a group of people that have no hope.
I choose to believe God can do the impossible.
Leif: You’re saying God can change a homosexual into a straight person. No question about that. The ONLY thing I’m saying is that what we ask from a gay or lesbian BEFORE God visits that miracle upon them is that they volunteer to live a life without the kind of emotional and physical intimacy the rest of us so cherish and take for granted. That’s all I’m saying.
And that is a VERY VERY difficult and gut wrenching process no doubt. One I wouldn’t pretend to completely understand.
As for the “cherish and take for granted,” rather rude of us isn’t it?
The thing too, is (as far as I can tell) pure human will, with or without reference to the Christian or any other God, IS enough to achieve victory over sins: I can will myself to stop lying, cheating, gambling, having affairs, etc. But as far as I know, no one who is gay can WILL themselves not to be. Another distinction between homosexual and regular sin that I think is absolutely critical to take into account when we’re evaluating the very nature and definition of sin.
Lief, I too agree that God can change a homosexual person into a heterosexual. He could also turn a homosexual into a dolphin. He just hasn’t demonstrated much desire to do either.
A recent study conducted by two conservative Christians of very very sincere people seeking desperately to change their orientation by means of religious efforts found that only a tiny handful reported any change at all and that all of them continued to struggle.
It can safely be said that though God is the God of miracles, in His own wisdom He has shown Himself to be unwilling to make any homosexuals into heterosexuals.
I’m not suggesting that God is thereby endorsing homosexuality. But it does appear that John’s observations about the demands placed on gay Christians will be true for virtually ALL of them. And that any expectation that God will choose a specific individual for divine reorientation is, at best, false hope.
[...] Related piece (posted 8/15/0 Homosexuality Isn’t Stealing or Lying–But It Is Being Lonely [...]
I can’t comment on ALL, ALWAYS, and NEVER, or because someone continues to struggle it means God must be unwilling. Why doesn’t God just whack us over the head with the magic stick and “turn us” into something else? I don’t know, but I’d rather take a few lumps with the wand than have to struggle through life. I don’t think I believe in the ultimate will power of mankind like John and maybe that’s why I still struggle.
I seems to me (as far as I can tell) the human experience is one of life long struggle. Not to say it isn’t filled with joys too, however, more often than not it’s a choice.
I haven’t quit and I haven’t abandon hope (for too long at any rate). Please don’t give up hope Timothy Kincaid, God does do amazing stuff.
:::to comment or not comment, that is the question:::
John, I appreciate your post as I appreciate the thoughtful intention of those who’ve responded. Coming from a christian and lesbian perspective I’d just toss in some random thoughts….
Having grown up in evangelical christianity, I’ve often heard of celibacy referred to as a gift and calling of God. Never, except in the case of gay people have I heard it applied as a requirement. I might just add on a personal note that I do not have the calling or the gift.
I’ll admit I tend toward bemused eye rolls when one of the arguments against homosexual relationships is that they’re sinful because sex outside of marriage is wrong. I may be wrong but I believe that’s considered a double bind. Charging gays as guilty in having sex outside of marriage while at the same time arguing against extending the rights and responsibilities of marriage to same-sex couples. (On a purely side note, those two young lovers in Song of Songs would have been in real trouble in the church today.)
My aunt died at the age of 94. She was never married, but when she died she was heterosexual all the same. Were I to remain celibate my entire life when I die, I would die gay. Sexual orientation isn’t dependent on sexual activity whether gay or straight.
The idea of what harm comes from a gay relationship….I’d rather re-frame that to consider what blessings and benefits might be found in a loving gay relationship.
It would be a false assumption to think all gay people would want to change into heterosexuals if they could, including those held within the Christian faith. Can it be difficult at times to be gay? Yes. Can it be joyous? Yes. Again, I might be wrong on this but my impression is that heterosexuals have difficulties and joys too but probably are pretty committed to remaining straight.
And Timothy, loved your “He could also turn a homosexual into a dolphin.” A big smile on that one.
And lastly John, you are a theologian. So to Flame Boy from Flipper, thanks for another thoughtful theological reflection.
But Leif, what do you do with the fact that in this lifelong struggle which God ordains to be the lot of us all, what the gay and lesbian has to suffer is SO much greater than anything you go into the game of life KNOWING God would ever ask of you. You GET to get married. You get to have a loving partner for life. You get to experience the deepest kind of intimacy with another. You get to grow old with someone who loves you, and whom you love. You get what everyone knows is THE most important, precious thing there IS to get in this life.
Given that gays DON’T get that–or shouldn’t, if they’re to be pleasing to God–doesn’t it kind of … feel a little smug, or a little off-handedly dismissive, to say, “Well. We all struggle. Gays struggle, too. What’s the diff?” I can’t help but feel that’s like a rich man in his warm mansion looking out the window at a begger freezing to death in the street, and going, “Hey, bad weather sucks for all of us.” I mean, I know you personally aren’t callous like that, but … but there that is.
I don’t disagree with your stated inequity and any trite Sunday school answer is smug and callous. Please forgive me if I expressed myself poorly in my I attempt to point out that life just isn’t fair and sometimes it just down right sucks and I’m not trying to be Sunday school trite.
The Bible does have an answer, which isn’t the warm fuzzy feel good that I know I’d like to have, however, God in His wisdom says He doesn’t give any individual more than they can endure. When I’m getting my face drug through the mud this seems very Sunday school callous, yet what’s a believer to do? And, for that matter, is His promise just for the believer and not the unbeliever?
Let me ask you another question, why do you think God instituted marriage between a man and woman?
No, Leif, I know you’re not a callous guy at all; I know you to be warm, open, and generous-hearted.
Before moving on to your question, a first must be settled. And mine is much simpler: Do you think that it IS, in fact, more than a person can endure–or more than anyone could ever, ever be expected to willingly endure–to have to live his or her life never knowing sexual intimacy and/or a relationship like the ones straight people have with their spouses? Do you think knowing you can NEVER have that (barring any instant, radical transformation of yourself from God) IS more than a person can bear?
As you know, I’m as Christian as Christian gets. But I just can’t seem to get past the notion that that IS more than a loving God would expect anyone to bear. It’s difficult for me to reconcile a loving God with a God who creates humans who can’t ever be part of the kind of relationship straight people know to be the most loving of all. The cruelest thing you can do to a person is isolate them from other people. Why would a loving God ask some people to spend their lives emotionally and physically isolated?
Anyway, as I say, I’m no expert on theology or homosexuality–or heterosexuality, or … ANYTHING. I just think it’s a legitimate course of inquiry. I hate the idea that, in the end, all we can really say is Christianity is irrational. THAT I reject, outright.
In my humanity it IS more than anyone can bear.
I can appreciate the fact that there is something that you can’t reconcile about God. In totality, He is unknowable. We will spend our whole life getting to know God more intimately and when we get to heaven we’ll go “Holy Cow!” (or words to that effect) because there will be so much more to know. I have a different issue in my life that I can’t reconcile. This issue has plagued me for forty years. So I have a choice. I can tell God to kiss it or I can acknowledge that I don’t get it and pray He will give me the widom He’s promised to, to work through it.
Christianity isn’t irrational, our desire for life to be fair is. There REALLY REALLY is evil in this world. There REALLY REALLY is a Satan who wants to destroy people and keep people from knowing the love of God.
Now that that first is settled……
“It’s like genetically engineering someone to be a vegetarian and then punishing them for not eating meat.”
for one there is NO evidence homsexuality is genetic!…even the man who did the study that sooo many misuse to make that claim said his findings were inconclusive and should not be used to to make that case…so that is a large leap to make and say they are genetically predisposed to be so…for there is NOTHING conclusive to say so and i would encourage you to read the study and the findings and the words of the man responsible for it beoore distributing such misleading info…
and to mr kincaid…many former homosexuals have left the lifestyle and this i know first hand and it is an insult to the ones who have to say they have not….it is like burying ones head in the sand and screaming, they can’t do it, they can’t do, it when it is being done daily!..
Leif: I’m not desiring that life be fair; anyone over eight knows it’s not. And I’m certainly not questioning whether or not there’s evil in the world; of course there is. Neither of those considerations actually has a place in this particular conversation. (Which I’m afraid I’m now gonna have to back out of: time, and all that.)
But I do reject the idea that Christianity as we have it–as we know it, as we experience it–can’t be rationally apprehended. Of course there is more to it than we can know rationally or intellectually, but nothing that we SENSE about Christianity should be out of whack with what we know of it to be true. And it’s certainly true that if something about Christianity is clearly offering as part of its doctrine something that is at once, here and on this earth, unavoidable AND absurdly cruel, then I can’t see any way around the fact that we Christians might do well to at least consider being smart enough, compassionate enough, and trusting enough in the intrinsic goodness of our God to carefully reexamine the very root and cause of that manifest discordance in our doctrine. I can’t stand before my gay and lesbian friends and say, “Sorry. God’s decided you can’t know love. Sure, it doesn’t make sense, but … that’s because my religion doesn’t make sense. If you do choose to go with your natural inclinations and enjoy the kind of relationship my natural inclinations lead me to enjoy with my wife, then you’ll pay the price of that decision by spending an eternity in hell. But I’ll go to heaven, where I’ll sit next to Jesus and finally understand why all you guys had to choose to either live here with no love at all, or to have love, but then spend eternity in hell. Won’t that be great? Until then: Life’s a mystery!”
Dude. That’s so weak. It’s EMBARASSINGLY weak. Would you say it? Would anyone? But I guess we do, right? I guess that’s what we Christians are resigned to saying. Seems to me we need a better line, a deeper understanding … something. Or maybe just I do.
Well, I’ll keep working on it! Like all Christians, I want nothing more than to please God with my thoughts and actions!
“It’s difficult for me to reconcile a loving God with a God who creates humans who can’t ever be part of the kind of relationship straight people know to be the most loving of all.”
this is good…except there is no proof HE created them gay…
and i would remind you bro…the human race is not now, in it’s fallen state…is not the same as when it was created….
First of all, cudos! You just did what most people who do not call themselves Christians complain that we (Christians) do not do and that is “to be transparent.”
It doesn’t matter that you may not have the answer. What is important is that you aren’t being hypocritical and you are being honest about how you think, feel, and in this case, analyze. I tip my hat to you, Sir John!!! {You might want to check out the book, “UnChristian” - it is a real eye opener about us the Christian church and how we react/respond to the world and their struggles and how they see us.]
You said,
“But outside of the Biblical injunction against it, whom does homosexual love hurt? ”
My understanding in reading the Bible is that all sins outside of sexual sins [I'll use that terminology for now] are outside of the body thus they affect others. However, sexual sin is against our body and the reason that is different and important is because the word says our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:12-20), thus, if and when we engage in any sexual behavior outside of God’s pre-determined stipulations - marriage - we are defiling the temple.
Now as far as homosexual sin. It is so weird that you chose to write about this topic because I was just having this very conversation with my friend. I think, as a group of believers, we have missed the point. The sin/(or whatever you want to call it) is not the point. The point is that sin separates us from a relationship with God because he is unable to share the same space, if you will. with sin. Thus when we commit a sexual sin, we create a barrier between ourselves and God and our relationship becomes hindered. This is resolved by repentance as I am sure you are aware. I think the problem for too long for Christians” has been that we are guilty of 1) labeling homosexuals and 2) focusing on the sin (act) instead of creating relationships with them and sharing how any sin carries the consequence of separation between man and God.
Sometimes I think Christians are so uncomfortable talking about sexual subjects that it is easier to hone in on the “sin” than to take a step back and look at the whole picture. What is paramount with any person we encounter is whether or not the person has a personal relationship with God/Jesus and are we are sharing the love of God with them.
For instance, Mary Magdalene (? spelling?) was caught in sexual sin but all Christ said to her was to “go and sin no more.” That was it. He didn’t judge her, label her, criticize her lifestyle, berate here, act arrogantly towards her, nothing. Just “go and sin no more.”
I think we need to love with the love of Christ and lead by the example of our “transparent” lives and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
Thanks for being so willing to be transparent and telling it like you see it. That is a breath of fresh air!
BTW - My apologies up front if anyone finds what I said offensive. My motivation was to share my point of view/worldview - that was all.
“…..asserting homosexuals should stop acting homosexual necessarily means asserting that they should spend their lives never knowing the loving intimacy with another that straight people enjoy and know to be the best and richest experience in life.”
Someone I know well, an attractive young woman who has had plenty of guys like her, and who turns 27 this year, has remained chaste and has never had a boyfriend.
She has, unfortunately, had her heart broken twice, when she fell in love with guys who were good friends, but not believers and not God’s plan for her life. Having been there, I know both times were extremely painful and difficult for her.
Believe me, she would love to have that “best and richest experience in life” - especially when she keeps running into all the wrong guys and none of the right ones.
But she also knows that God has not guaranteed her or any other single person a spouse.
The way she deals with this, and what she told me to say when I told her about this blog, is to understand that you don’t have to bear the rest of your life today - you don’t know what God has planned for you.
If you’re gay, you have no way of knowing whether “the rest of your life” involves a spouse and kids (God has and does work miracles in the lives of gays, like He does with all kinds of people), life-long singleness … or if the “rest of your life” only lasts until tomorrow.
She also said not to assume that you would have had a wonderful life if only you had been straight - or that you would have had been married and happy. She says that your calling from God is unique to you - ‘no one can do what you can do”
“for one there is NO evidence homsexuality is genetic!”
Wow…did I hit a sore note?
I would imagine the thousands, if not millions, of homosexual men and women who engage in monogamous relationships despite the horrible discrimination that’s inflicted on them is, at least, a little evidence.
Now, I understand that you may not want them to be genetically that way, because it makes you uncomfortable. But what you want and what reality is are two different things.
Good for you, John. I think we all appreciate the fact you are willing to put a difficult topic on the table.
I am not homosexual. I struggle with depression and painful issues connected to intimacy.
Why can’t I have sex if I’m not married? Because the bible says that sex is for marriage? Has the bible really taken all of humanity’s struggles into account when it handed out its list of do’s and don’ts?
What if my malady is mental illness, and I get out of balance in an intimate relationship? Getting married causes me too much emotional pain. Does that mean I am quarantined to a life without the joys of sex?
Because God made me mentally ill, am I forbidden the joy of waking up next to a wonderful partner, even if I have to leave in order to maintain my emotional equillibrium?
The bible either works for us all, or it doesn’t work at all for any of us. I don’t think we have the option of picking which part we want to follow, and which part we want to discard.
The Job seat is an uncomfortable throne.
“I don’t think we have the option of picking which part we want to follow, and which part we want to discard.”
I don’t want to start a whole other argument, but every Christian does this. I can say that because I’ve read the Bible several times, and there are countless rules and laws and orders that are ignored or avoided by any number of Christians.
“Now, I understand that you may not want them to be genetically that way, because it makes you uncomfortable. But what you want and what reality is are two different things.”
it is not a question of what you or i want…it is a question of supplying misinfo. based on nothing more then what you imagine things to be…
you make statements that hint to saay you have some science to support your assertion(and that is what you did by suggesting it is genetic)…and that is simple not true…if that bothers you i am sorry…
but i know this topic quite well and i can assure you you are not only misrepresenting the science but me as well being i am ex-homo… so to say anything about my confort shows you like to speak before you know the facts and all i am saying is that is not wise…at all…
i will exit this now as i can see the demeanor of the conversation has change…thanks for the op article john…it was good stuff…
I can’t believe I’m adding a second comment for this BUT in my previous comment I erroneously called you “Flame Boy” John and everyone knows it’s not “Flame Boy” but TORCH BOY in honor of your almost carrying of the Olympic torch.
But I digress….
Since some people here are flat out saying that gay-ness is a “cultural conditioning”, how come I never hear of a straight Christian admit of his one-time tempting of lusting after a guy, or a woman for another?
Even in the strictest and most traditional of societies are there gays and lesbians, so how can these people acquired “homosexuality” if it is denounced and even a means to put one to death?
Until I see a Christian “will” himself to be strictly gay — I mean purely become attracted to men, not actually go after them physically, mind you, as temptation is not sin, just its precursor — and then “will” himself to become strictly straight again, I think the whole idea that being gay is “a state of mind” is complete and utter “b.s.” and will continue to believe that it is a matter of genetic and environmental factors.
John –
You get it. Thank you.
Second Michelle –
I’m a celibate gay Christian. For most of my adult life, I remained celibate because I believed no intimate physical relationship would ever be lawful for me. I entered counseling to try to change, but it didn’t work. I began a long slow path into despair. I’d do things like neglect my health because, frankly, it seemed more efficient to die alone at fifty from heart disease than to die alone of natural causes at ninety. In either case I’d be dying alone, so what did it matter?
Then a couple of years ago I reconsidered a lot of things — in particular, whether I believed the Spirit of God was still speaking in the world, and if so, whether he could speak new things, like when Jesus repealed all the Jewish dietary laws (Mark 7:18-20). Could God be speaking today, revealing that monogamous same-sex relationships based in selfless love are “clean”?
The despair lifted away. It felt like the Holy Spirit had lifted an iron yoke from my shoulders. I didn’t run out and have sex (and I still haven’t!) but I began waiting and saving myself for that special person, just like your friend is saving herself. I started taking care of my health again. And now I’m living in more hope than I’ve ever felt.
And I understand that God may never give me that special relationship. It may be his will for his life for me to be single. But it now feels like the Holy Spirit and I are working out that possibility together in conversation, rather than feeling like I’ve been sentenced and there is no appeal.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit is alive, and the Bible, though an inspired and amazing record of his work in the world, is too small to contain Him. I thank God for speaking to me — and I thank Him for speaking to John!
Cavalcade: Fantastic. Just … inspiring. And it rings with spiritual depth and truth. Wonderful. Thank you.
John, this is a beautiful post - you do, indeed, get it. Thank you for refusing to accept irrationality as an excuse. God has no need to be irrational.
Why is it so hard for some to understand that the “sin” condemned in the Bible had nothing to do with loving sexual relationships between two equals, but rather the sexual exploitation of one person by another in an unequal, perhaps nonconsensual, relationship? Given this, there is no contradiction, no need for different categories of sin. What is sinful does harm to others; behavior that does harm to others is sinful. Exploiting people, treating them as objects to be used for our own pleasure - that is a sin, and it is a sin that people of any sexual orientation can and do commit - but heterosexual men probably take the prize there.
What increases love in the world is never a sin.Two people sharing with each other the kind of love that John describes here is never a sin. No loving God would create such a capricious and destructive situation.
The burden that we have to carry - that burden that is not too much for us - is the burden of certain rather smug people who are convinced that they somehow know more about who God created us to be than we do, that God speaks only to them but not to us, all because they have read some words that some people put down to record their own testimonies of faith, and think that was the end of it. Yes, those ideas alone - especially transmitted through the filter of the smug - are much too small for the God I know.
Cavalcade, I pray that wordsseldomsaid can become open to hearing the Holy Spirit, as you have. He is carrying a burden that shouldn’t be his. It was given to him by humans, not God.
Pariah: WOW! Powerful stuff. And beautifully written.
Man, I got myself some good-word usin’ commentators on my blog here for sure.
No, but thanks. Extremely trenchant.
Hmm. I’m looking at the ten commandments and words of christ in the new testament and I see nothing saying that homosexuality is a sin.
Interesting. OH right, Paul does say something. And we made him the Lord didn’t we?
Judge not, bro.
Wanted to ad that the Bishop of the Episcopal church is a homosexual. Of course, we aren’t REAL Christians are we?
My views are a bit radical so being late is probably a good thing.
First, very well said John. You articulate the loving Christian’s dilemma beautifully.
I think we as Christians have to come to the humble realization that we are guilty of living a sinful lifestyle. Present tense. Many of my brothers and sisters in Christ disagree and point out a distinction between our “little” sins and willful disobedience to God.
However, I have come to a place in my walk where I think that is a cop-out. Every sin I commit today will be intentional. It will require me to intentionally ignore God no matter how small the sin. I will choose activities, thoughts and words that will not glorify Him.
So if I am living in a manner where I sin but only in such a way that is socially acceptable to my fellow Christians am I better than the man who is living with another man? What if both men have received Christ and worship Him with their voices, tithes, charitable heart towards the poor?
To which we would respond, “Well if they are in Christ, they would repent of their sins and seek to live a life that is pleasing to God.” Sanctification. A process. I am no further along on this path than the next. To presume otherwise is to presume I am holier than the next. That would be sinning, right?
There are many Christians who ignore The Great Commission. They only socialize with other Christians. They pray for Jesus to return and judge the world. Does this willful disobedience of God prove they are not saved? Of course not… However, their sin is socially acceptable among Americans and Christians. We simply permit it.
In some states, a male and female living together for more than 7 years is considered “common law marriage.” That is, the state recognized their relationship as a marriage from a legal perspective. Are we as Christians prepared to fight for a constitutional amendment disallowing this practice?
To the outside viewer, it appears that we Christians are singling out gays, and I say: It appears that way because well, we are.
The difference between emotional isolation as a heterosexual and as a homosexual for the sake of being sinless is the the difference between being on a bad road trip with a good map and being on that same road trip lost.
You see as a heterosexual I can be celibate for years but there is always the prospect of that coming to an end with the discovery of a suitable marriage partner. Now, theoretically that may never happen, but there is always the chance that it could, because intimacy in the confines of heterosexual marriage are encouraged in our faith.
However, for the homosexual there is no allowable prospect of that isolation ending. That said, we are social creatures. We want to share our lives with another person. We want to love and feel love. This is why I strongly believe that we as Christians must be more understanding of the struggle of homosexuals especially in the confines of our faith. This goes beyond tolerance.
People assume that homosexual relationships are strictly about some kind of deviant sexual behavior, when in fact that is no more the case for them as it is for heterosexuals.
The are deviant behaviors no matter who you are physically attracted to, but through narrow minded prejudices homosexuals have been labeled with the bulk of these titles simply based on who they are. This is an unfair judgment.
It was said to me once that God does not hate homosexuals and does not want them to live their lives without every knowing love. He does; however, have a rule about physical intimacy that applies to all who believe in him as Christians and chose to follow his commandments.
That rule is that pre-marital sex is wrong. Fornication is a sin. So, I think this is where God’s provision lies for homosexuals. They can have a deep and abiding asexual relationship with whom ever they choose and remain in God’s will.
There is no such thing as big sin and little sin. God sees all sin the same. There is no different provisions for sin in the Bible. It is all covered by the blood of Jesus. If we can remember that one truth, then the next time we open our mouths to judge anyone based on his/her actions or lifestyle we will be able to remember that God sees the stain of fornication the EXACT same way he sees lying, adultry, stealing, gluttony,vanity, greed, uncleanliness, jealousy AND being judgmental.
So my question becomes who is guilty of more sin, the person who judges the homosexual simply for being homosexual without any knowledge of his/her private life or the homosexual for simply being?
Just a thought.
Good point that I have not thought about before. Thank you for expanding my brain!
One point: Christianity doesn’t ask a homosexual to never experience intimacy — just never homosexual intimacy. And add to that the knowledge that God’s design is best so Christianity is asking them to change their behaviour in a way that is beneficial to them even though they may not agree with that.
Disclaimer: I am a technical person so this technical point may be not very useful.
James, I just have to ask: Are you a man who is oriented toward women, perhaps very much in love with a woman? If you were offered the option of intimacy with another man as a substitute for that relationship, and told by me or any other person that this option is God’s design and is beneficial to you, would you find that in the least credible?
My guess is that you would perhaps “not agree with that,” and all that I am asking you to do is to honestly explore why.
Ingrid, the simple and obvious solution to this problem is to recognize what marriage actually is. I think that John has done a fabulous job of describing his, and how it differs from an asexual relationship. We were not made to live without the possibility of that kind of intimacy.
Pariah: Now that you’re here, I’m gonna quit talking. You’re sooooo good at this.
James –
For the many years that I believed homosexual intimacy was verboten, I was obliged to avoid all forms of intimacy. It was the “slippery slope.” If I sought intimacy with someone who I was attracted to and who felt the same way about me — emotional intimacy would lead to physical intimacy (touch), physical intimacy would lead to sexual intimacy, and sexual intimacy was of the devil. So to hold that first line of defense I had to avoid that emotional intimacy.
Here’s an exercise for heterosexual readers in a relationship: see how long you can go without using touch to express your feelings for your loved one. Can you go days? Weeks? Months? Years? What effect does this have on your emotional intimacy?
Another extremely fine response. Man. Awesome. This is put so perfectly well.
Personally I believe that hating homosexuals is as bad as hating african americans, indians, ect. Or hating a child because she’s not ‘old enough’. It’s not something that can be changed. you cant change skin color, or age, or…. reality.
I dont understand why this bothers people. What is so wrong with this? Just because your female friend prefers to sleep with other females doesnt mean its hurting you. Shes not condoning your sexual whatever, she’s dismissing all men’s whatevers. There is nothing wrong with that. Now, if she’s trying to castrate you so she can sleep with you… thats different.
And why is this a political thing? Do our representives not care about the votes they exclude because they’re so against this?
I dont have anytihng against homosexuality. If you dont hit on me, I’m fine. I’m not going to ban your marriages, kick you out of jobs or… stone your houses. Because it doesnt affect me.
I’ve met some awesome gay people. They were smart, athelitic, creative, and sex never came up. Sure it was obvious that they were gay, but it wasnt the worst thing in the world. I’ve also met some gay guys who were really bitchy girls. And guess what? He’s a transexual female now, very pretty, still bitchy, and straight.
why do we put so much to do with the bible? Why not the constitution, which is what america was founded with.
Point well taken @ pariah. I will be the first to admit I have much to learn. I am not sure I agree, but I am open to the possibility simply because I believe God lives in this kind of discourse. This is how we gain understanding and become better Christians.
@ Calvacade I was in a 8 year relationship with a married man *GASP* I loved him and I believed he loved me, but the reality of the situation was that no matter how much of a lovefest we were having at the time, the sin of my lifestyle was wrong.
As a result of the ending of this “relationship” I submitted myself to God and have remained celibate for a year. I have full life and plenty of friends, but I will continue to be celibate until God places someone in my life. It was very difficult at first, but God’s grace really is sufficient. Celibacy is not the end of the world and it does not preclude having a loving relationship or fulfillment. I date but I don’t touch, and I know God honors that. He doesn’t honor it because i am straight, he honors it because I am His.
Dear John-
Refreshing to read an honest post about a difficult issue. Have you considered the “plight” of a single heterosexual male or female? What if you were single, desperately wanting to be married but unable to find the “one?” Would you feel destined to live a lonely, isolated life? Do you believe that you would be unable to experience meaningful connection in life without that particular kind of intimate relationship? What if what is best for you and me (I’ve been married 20 years- some very challenging) isn’t what’s best for everyone? Easy for me to say, right?
As you pointed out with such insight, we cannot pretend to know the mind of God. At some point, we must choose to believe that he is omnipotent and perfect and holy. Would a God like that put us under a life sentence of isolation and lonliness?
As Christians, we have insight into the mind of God through Scripture. When we experience the unconditional love of Christ, we are inspired to reflect that love, grace and mercy in how we live every day. I beg to differ that we can understand that stealing, cheating, llying apart from Scripture. Doesn’t that fall into “I am God, God is within me” thinking? Scripture is our boundary in life, helping to keep us in the best, safest place. Within the will of God.
Welcome to the family!
Shalom
arlwyn–”why do we put so much to do with the bible? Why not the constitution…”
For Christians, or at least most (many? some? a few?) of them, the Bible, being God’s word and all, supercedes the constitution. It’s a big thing in American Christianity to emphasize (look out–Christianese coming right up) submitting to the worldly authorities God puts in place, unless they tell us to do something directly against what God says.
Not saying everyone has to do that–just saying that’s why Christians are so attached to what the Bible says. Which is what makes the dilemma John mentions such a difficult one. We know what God says…or at least our interpretation of it…but we often don’t understand how it jives with our reality.
‘K, my son’s dancing on the end table. Thanks for the thoughts everyone–good to ponder.
but the bible isnt always right. I remember a part in the bible about incest, and thats not right in reality. Wish I wasnt in the middle of class or I’d go look it up.
Thank you Mr. Shore. I’ve been waiting for literally decades to see a Christian writer make this connection. Usually it’s just quickly glossed over. I think the reason why is pretty obvious.
When my mom passed away a few years ago, I inherited her diaries. We never discussed my sexual orientation…it was a Don’t Ask Don’t Tell household. I was, like her, raised a Baptist, and the time of my coming of age coincided, not coincidentally, with the period of my leaving the faith. What I expected to read in her diaries from that time was grief over my slow but steady walk away from our church. But no. Grief there was, but it was almost exclusively over how the bright and cheerful son she once had turned into a moody, sullen, angry young man. It makes me cry to read those entries.
When you take the possibility of love away from someone…what do they have left? Think about that, the next time you see an angry homosexual.
Bruce: Perfectly said. Just … perfect. And what a touching, heart-wrenching story.
It seems lately that I am seeing more and more “Christians” debating and watering down the truth. It is not our job to debate the bible, or cast our opinions of Gods word. It is His word, and His thoughts are higher than ours. He is Holy God Almighty, I am not. I am only to trust in Him and obey. Gods word clearly says:
Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” (Romans 1:26-28)
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
In 1Co_6:11, Paul clearly states that even those who sin in these ways can have their lives changed by Christ. However, those who say that they are Christians but persist in these practices with no sign of remorse will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Such people need to reevaluate their lives to see if they truly believe in Christ.
In a permissive society it is easy for Christians to overlook or tolerate some immoral behavior (greed, drunkenness, etc.) while remaining outraged at others (homosexuality, thievery). We must not participate in sin or condone it in any way; we cannot be selective about what we condemn or excuse. Staying away from more “acceptable” forms of sin is difficult, but it is no harder for us than it was for the Corinthians. God expects his followers in any age to have high standards.
From what I have read in God’s word, I see no reason for Christians to debate homosexuality, and I encourage those who do to spend more time in the word and prayer.
Bruce, they have Jesus. He is the most precious relationship anyone could ever have and His love for us is far beyond the love of another human being. We need to be careful not to encourage others away from the truth. There are no mistakes in God’s word.
John,
I recall that my wife went to a gay wedding a few years ago because she was invited. She resisted the chance to over think her choice and get too weighed down by ethical, religious or moral considerations. Looking back, I believe the decision was one to celebrate two happy people who wanted to celebrate their love together with their friends. She had a good time too.
Amanda: Have you ever had any good friends who were homosexual? GOOD friends, I mean: friends who mean as much to you as anyone you’ve ever loved.
If you haven’t, then I’d like to suggest that you’re simply not in a position to understand or empathize with what’s at stake in the ongoing Christian “debate” about homosexuality.
It doesn’t matter. If I did, would it change God’s word? What are your intentions with this blog? Are you drawing people to Christ? Are you impacting the Kingdom? Or are you encouraging others to debate the very word of God? Our choices in life does not change who He is, nor does it change His word
Amanda,
Because you posted some scriptures, I just want to ask you about the first one. Based on Deuteronomy 22:5 which clearly says that women aren’t to wear what pertains to a man, does that mean you don’t ever where slacks or pants of any kind or if married, does it mean you’ve never worn your husband’s over-sized shirt around the house or to sleep in? As a lesbian I’m curious as to why you would include this passage among others that are used as a prohibition against homosexuality. Thanks so much
Anita, this verse commands men and women not to reverse their sexual roles. It is not a statement about clothing styles. Today role rejections are common—there are men who want to become women and women who want to become men. It’s not the clothing style that offends God, but using the style to act out a different sex role. God had a purpose in making us uniquely male and female.
Dan, I so appreciated the story you shared and glad to know your wife was able to enjoy the day despite any conflicting beliefs she might have had.
When my partner and I had a wedding service at church there were about 180 people there, mostly straight which included a lot of young families since I work in children’s ministry. A few months after the wedding one of the mom’s who along with her husband had brought their six year old daughter told me how happy she was that the first wedding her daughter ever got to experience was ours.
“Because she had the chance to see a gay wedding?” I asked.
“No, that really didn’t have anything to do with it. What I’m glad Kate had a chance to see was all the love that was in the church on your wedding day. It communicated so well what marriage is all about and what I want for my own children to experience one day.”
We invited people to our wedding, not to “win them over” to one position or another. We invited them to share in the celebration of our love as do all couples looking ahead to their wedding day….okay….and the gifts were so bad either
That was suppose to be the gifts weren’t so bad</em. Okay. The decoupaged wedding invitation glued on a plaque was so bad but the rest were sweeeeeet!
[...] Literally. A Christian writer who takes his anti-gay bible passages seriously, actually notices the elephant in the room… [...]
Anita,
Thank you. Is it possible that we try to analyze too much instead of enjoying the love and the moment? What I enjoyed, at the time, is that Deb (my wife) did not try to predict how she would feel at the celebration or how she should feel, but was open to enjoying the experience of two people in love who wanted their friends to be part of their memories.
James and Amanda (comments 42, 54, 55): What I (in my comment) am suggesting it not in any way meant to “waterdown” God’s word. In fact, I’m suggesting that we do a better job of following it in all areas beginning with the 2 greatest commandments.
James, you commented:
I could modify this slightly to apply to any Christian going through the process of sanctification — the process of actively seeking God and becoming (changing to be) more Christlike. None of us are there.
For many of us in the US, I believe Jesus is telling us to give everything we have to the poor (ala rich young ruler) We do not agree or like that idea at all. Yet we may continue coming to worship, fellowship, and even lead these activities … even though we refuse to change. BTW, I believe this is a good thing, you know … preaching give to the poor but not excluding everyone who has a 40″ or larger LCD HDTV.
Amanda you commented:
I don’t think you are suggesting we be outraged with all immoral behavior. I’m assuming you mean to say we should neither “tolerate” all immoral behavior.
Instead, I think (and wonder if you don’t as well) that we should be consistent in our response. If we were to become equally outraged with greed, drunkenness, etc… then AA would stop using our churches for meetings among other things. And how about greed. If one is fortunate enough to live in the US, own a house, own a car, have a job and health care — well then he/she is among the richest people group this earth has ever seen. 90% of the people on our planet have less. If someone in this wealthy people group wants more stuff, is that greed? What is our reaction to these people today?
“Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”
Remember this ladies! Avoid pants, or you may find yourself in Hell.
WOW
I think this atheist just became a little more sympathetic to Christianity based on this very rational, loving, and eloquent summary.
Still, very depressing that some commentors here keep referring to homosexuality as a sin. As a scientist, it’s really just a harmless state of life, a simple biological coincidence, and a purely natural occurence.
I would imagine they have no gay friends as you do John. When it’s personal, it becomes much more difficult to justify institutionalized second class citizenry; particularly if there is no scientifically-based objection.
Amanda,
Actually, there are no mistakes in God’s creation. It’s not enough to read those scriptural passages, you must also understand who was speaking, who they were speaking to, when, where, what the context was, and what the speaker’s objective was. In other words, you must use discernment.
Obviously, much of what is in the Bible is metaphor. Other passages are an account of a tribal people trying over time to maintain its identity under the constant threat of assimilation by other cultures. It happens that many of those cultures had some form of gender variance as part of their religious practices. You (as many others do, and have in some traditions for a long time) are just reading it literally, seemingly without any contextualization at all.
I understand that this approach to Scripture is all that many people have been taught in the tradition within which they were raised, and that the notion of trying to analyze and understand it might seem like debate to you, and might even be threatening, but I assure you that the tradition of such conversation goes back much farther, having its roots in Talmudic study. There is no need to place “scare quotes” around the term Christian when referring to people engaging in discernment - in fact, I would really appreciate it if you wouldn’t. We are all part of the body of Christ.
My view is that God is certainly still speaking, and working through people as always. Why would God be finished? That seems to me to be a very human idea. Recall that prophets were always the ones who made everyone else uncomfortable.
Also - the essentialist gender thing (”sex roles”) is a reflection of what people understood at the time. God’s creation is a lot more interesting and complex than that.
“No matter the moral, ethical or cultural context, it is always wrong to steal or lie, because doing so always hurts another person.”
I thought this comment was interesting, but it’s not necessarily “true” so I wasn’t totally in agreement with your comparison. Isn’t this what makes the “white” lie so acceptable, because it’s not REALLY hurting anyone? Or the loyal, hardworking employee who takes a few pens home from work. No big deal, right? Just a thought …
My point being, in any moral, ethical or cultural context, it’s wrong to sin. Period. It doesn’t matter who it does or doesn’t hurt.
John, thank you. Thank you for your openness to question and test things in regard to this subject. It is refreshing to see a Christian (who is not gay), take a different approach to this subject.
Instead of the constant “Let me tell you what is so wrong with homosexuals”, you’re no afraid to ask the question ” What is so wrong with homosexuals?”
It takes courage to ask questions like this and look further in to it. I think many are afraid to ask that challenging question, for one reason or another.
I think sometimes as Christians, we act like Pharisees with machine guns who fire out “You’re wrong, wrong, wrong and you’re going to hell, hell, hell.” I don’t think Jesus asked us to do that. I’m certain He got on to the Pharisees for doing that very same thing. What’s worse is on top of doing this, we say we are “speaking the truth in love”. We have a lot to learn about love.
The part that bothers me the most about this debate is we as the loving Christians we are to be, will recite scripture to people and tell people we believe the word of God is flawless yet we will go to Red Lobster, eat shellfish and cook dinner for our families on the Sabbath and say it’s ok. We will fire out that homosexuals “pick and choose” what scripture best suits their life but don’t we all do that? We sound so very hypocritical.
I question the motive in our hearts if we continue to take the approach to this subject that we do. The behavior many of us take on in regard to homosexuality is the same behavior many took on when we as Christians were not allowing women to teach in the church, when we were justifying slavery and banning rock music and dancing. Were we watering down the truth then when we began to look at those things differently too?
I think part of the problem with this subject is many of us look at homosexuals as disgusting. The image we have had planted in our heads about the typical lesbian or gay man is most likely incorrect. I think some of us have the grave image of a gay person being one has no morals, who doesn’t understand what it means to be Christ like, who has sex in dark alleys with anyone and when the after bar party starts, it’s orgie time. Much like the image that is given to us in the bible about temple prostitutes. It’s this very image that instills fear in us about our kids getting close to those who are gay. Sad to say, I’ve known some gay folks like that and I’ve also known some straight folks like that.
Until we are willing to admit that we were taught wrong, we will probably never be able to even take a different approach to this subject. We were taught wrong folks and that’s hard to admit and accept.
I am standing and applauding with Shush and Chuck. Thanks John for taking a different approach to things.
I didn’t read all the comments to this may or may not have been addressed. You posed the question of who is hurt by homosexual relationships. I would argue that both participants in a homosexual relationship are ‘hurt’. N.T. Wright teaches an idea that I think is helpful. He frames sin as de-humanizing behavior. If we consider that Jesus came to demonstrate what it means to be a truly human, we can understand sin in terms of behavior that falls short of God’s design for creation.
Now if we follow Paul’s argument in Romans One, one thing becomes perfectly clear. We have but to look down towards our genitals to understand God’s design is for men to become one with women and not with other men. The same principle applies to women. As Paul explained, homosexuality is actually the result of judgement, of God having given someone over to a disqualified mind.
To encourage someone to act in accordance with God’s design is not cruel but the most humane thing we could do. We tend to think of love and intimacy in terms of a strong feeling of affection towards another human but that is not the picture that scripture presents. Love is a determination to look out for someone else’s best interest and it is certainly in the best interest of a homosexual to abandon that lifestyle.
Far from asking homosexuals to live without intimacy or in physical and emotional isolation, God is calling all of us to live in accordance with his design and to experience the fulfillment of a truly human life as demonstrated in the life of Jesus Christ.
Just my two cents.
“To encourage someone to act in accordance with God’s design is not cruel but the most humane thing we could do.”
How sad. Try explaining that to deeply closeted teenagers with same-sex attractions. You’ll just confuse, shame, and anger them for really no reason. It’s this type of rhetoric that leads to unnecessasry and premature suicides. I don’t understand how you don’t see how truly inhumane this is.
Consider that the world’s leading health, medical, and pyschological associations would vehemently disagree with your position. Are they lying or wrong?
You can’t possibly know the mind of God. You can’t possibly expect that the Bible is clear on these issues considering the time and place in which it was written. Plus, I would imagine you don’t speak Greek (I do). The Bible writers were referring to pedophilia and not necessarily what 2 mature men or women do in private in committed, loving relationships. Finally, this is a secular country. If your religion forbids something, then don’t do it. Meanwhile, why deprive millions of gay couples of the happiness you enjoy?
It amazes me that we can just simply sum up God’s creation plan to men’s genitals, women making babies and who should where the pants. I think our God is bigger than that and perhaps, just maybe, He had a bigger plan than that.
Amanda-I have to ask you the same questions you asked John. What are your intentions with your comments? What is the motive in your heart? Are you drawing people closer to Christ with the things you are saying?
I’m also curious, why are you so interested in someone’s sin? (As you call it.)
Here is a question-Why are we so concerned with homosexuals and not with those who serve different God’s? I mean we are quick to pull out the scripture rifle and fire “It’s sin, sin sin and you’re going to hell, hell, hell. But it also states in scripture that we are to have no other Gods and if we break any of those commandments, we have sinned. So what is the REAL reason we are so concerned with gay Christians?
And why in the world do so many people think that gay folks haven’t read the bible and don’t know scripture?
Why is it so wrong for people to test and question scripture in some folks eyes? Are we suppose to have “majority rules and popular belief theology”?
A song keeps going over and over again in my head. I’m sure many of you know it. “Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now.”
It may not be in the bible, but I think it’s pretty biblical and perhaps should be practiced more often by us Christians.
Great, thoughtful and inspiring post, John!
Amanda: Don’t be quoting Bible verses at me. I’m not well enough versed in every aspect of the Good Book to give you a legitimate argument for or against anything. All I can tell you is that I think you need to have a little more compassion for others who are not like yourself, and less fire and brimstone, as if your opinion is the ONLY opinion.
The Bible is a collection of stories, eyewitness accounts, parables, etc. that supposedly are God’s Word. But, just like the children’s game Telephone, the original intent of any Bible verse is lost in the many translations of the Holy Text. How does anyone know what is in the Bible now is what the author orginially wrote two millenia before?
Now, before you start calling me a heretic or a non believer, I must tell you that I believe in God, Jesus Christ as my Savior, and in a good deal of what the Bible says. However, God also gave me free will to ask questions and learn things for myself. One of the things I’ve learned with this gift of free will and a somewhat competent mind that you have to love others as you love yourself. It doesn’t matter one iota whether they are straight, gay, black, red, brown, or pink with purple polka dots. Of course, there are a few baddies along the way, but for the most part, people are good. Even those who are not like I am (i’m straight, white and Catholic, BTW).
Stephanie: I remember that song, and yes, that is how I feel. We are all brothers and sisters in the Lord, Buddah, Allah, Yahweh, etc.
John,
This has been one of the best comments sections of yours I’ve read. I’m still chewing on the comments and going through mind-altering moments (no - change in POV, not drugs).
The song referred to above is one of my favorites - “Get Together” by The Youngbloods. Google the lyrics.
Peace.
-Sam