Before I was a Christian, I just assumed that all Christians believed in Satan. Now that I’ve been a Christian for twelve years, I know that some Christians believe in Satan, and some Christians don’t.
My first six years as a Christian I attended a very large, old, rich, conservative Presbyterian church in downtown San Diego. Not once in those six years did I hear Satan mentioned from the pulpit. For the last six years, I’ve attented a very large, old, rich, liberal Episcopal church just outside downtown San Diego. Not once in those six years have I heard Satan mentioned from the pulpit. Because of my work I’ve gone to all kinds of services in all kinds of churches, and I’m not sure I’ve ever heard Satan mentioned from any pulpit — and if I have, it’s never been more than in passing. I once had a job as a Church Relations Manager for a Christian Rescue Mission, and nobody at that job ever mentioned the Devil or Satan. It’s the same in my professional life now. It’s just not something that ever comes up.
It’s been my own personal, humble experience that if Christians do believe in Satan, they don’t talk about it very much at all.
The question of Satan did, however, come up the other night during a Lenten class I’m leading at an Episcopal church here in the San Diego area. The subject of the night was evil. I had offered up my Basic Thought on the matter (which, if you care, you can read at Evil: Surprise! It’s a Good Thing!), and in the discussion afterward a man asked me if I believed in Satan.
“I think the whole idea of an evil entity existing out in the world is pure hogwash,” he said. “What do you think?”
The first thing I thought was, “Wow! Someone’s finally talking about Satan. And in a church!”
That was the good news. The bad was that the man had asked his question a full five minutes after the class was supposed to have ended. So we’re going to pick up on that subject next week.
If you were me, how would you answer that question?
(I suppose I should say that my personal answer amounts to this: I don’t care if Satan is real or not; I tend to have zero interest in questions I know can’t be answered. I know I believe in the reality of evil; and I know I have enough on my plate keeping as much of it as possible out of my own heart, mind, and behavior. And I know that’s enough to keep me busy for one life time. I certainly don’t have any problem with the idea of Satan being real. I think it’s a perfectly useful and even outstanding construct. Because it’s true that whenever you’re dealing with real, pure evil, it feels as if there is more to it than can be accounted for by the sum of its parts. It does feel separate from people in that way. So at the very least I think the idea of Satan makes perfect sense; I have found it is sometimes good and helpful to think of evil as something outside of, or foreign to, human nature and/or God’s will. As I say, though, the bottom line for me personally is that I stay plenty busy just trying to rid myself of all the selfish, greedy, petty, animalistic thoughts and feelings that I know I generate by myself, on my own, every hour of every day. I sure don’t need Satan to understand the difference between right or wrong, or to help me know when any wrong that’s happened is my own fault, and due to my own nature.)
John,
I feel that the topic of satan is complex. I grew up in a family where we went to both Muslim and Baptist “services so the devil and satan were brought up a lot and felt very reall to me then. As a kid I just knew I was going to hell and that the devil was in me because of the fire and brimstone teachings at the baptist church-as an adult I know that those were scare tactics to get us saved. I believe that there is evil and that there are evil acts and persons who commit evil acts. I believe that all persons have the potential of doing wrong. I know from the bible that satan tried to tempt Jesus. So I would say that satan is “real” but the manifistations of satan is most real and most complex-serial killers, child abusers, war monger….As a Christian I don’t focus on satan’s existence, but on how I live my life. Am I doing all that I should be doing to walk the Christian walk? Have I stopped doing those things that are not of God? Have I asked for forgiveness and help in dealing with things I need to change?
John,
In the southern midwest you find many preachers who speak of the devil. I want to mention a scripture passage. The Lord’s prayer found in Matthew 6. Verse 13 in the NIV. On crosswalk.com the Greek lexicon page tells us that the word for evil in that passage is in the nominative case. In other words the NIV translation is more correct than others in this case. Jesus is teaching us to pray that the Father in Heaven will deliver us from The Evil One or in other words the satan or the devil. In the book of Job he is portrayed as an accuser like a prosecuting attorney in the Eternal Court. He is called Abaddon or the destroyer in Revelation 9:11.
I would add to your thoughts that solely attributing evil to Satan is a dangerous proposition, because taken to extremes it negates the importance of autonomy and self control. Too many people are willing to toss off their temptations and urges as “Satan is testing me” and try to write off their giving in as, “Satan is winning.”
The Bible is clear that the spirit within us is STRONGER than that which is in the world. Call it Satan or the ether or the unknown or evil itself- what truly matters is that if we devote ourselves to Christ it will not overcome us.
John,
Today there is an attempt to give the devil greater power than he has. The idea is like yin and yang. The idea is that the force of evil is equally balanced with the force of Good. Then the idea is expanded to the point that the devil is equal in power to God. All of the scripture about the devil teach us that he is a created being - a fallen angel. In the last judgement another angel will throw him into the lake of fire. That does not sound like a being with equal power to God.
OK last one. I must agree with Sabina and shush. For us today the real lesson is the fact that those who are believers, who have committed their lives to follow the teachings of Jesus and live a life of total obedience and have allowed Gods Holy Spirit to move into that ‘God shaped hole’ in their inner being - those people have tremendous power to do God’s work in this world. These people have the authority and power to tell the devil to ‘get behind me!”
Do I believe in Satan? Well only a fool would answer that as a NO.
Satan is very real, and is doing all the evil in this world. But, as we see in Job, Satan can’t do anything unless God gives his permission.
Satan was s a beautiful angel created by God. He got jealous, with his beauty, and wanted to be just like God. And thought he could be. Well, he fell out of heaven, and so did his followers.
In the End, when Jesus Comes back, Satan has one place he is going forever: HELL AND DAMNATION. AND MINE IS HEAVEN WITH JESUS FOR EVER.
Jesus talks about satan. the New Testament is filled with info about satan…
Tho it isn’t necessarily totally Bible-based, Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis is an interesting take on how satan and his minions work.
“Minions.” I love that word. It’s like … genitalized onions, or … something less stupid.
Oh, I’m sorry, is this discussion thread about vegetables???
I am pretty sure Lewis used that word in the book….so I guess I kinda stole the use of it…. ? It is a cool word, or I wouldn’t have!
Satan; a root that makes us cry. Close enough.
As MA Ross pointed out (#7), Satan is real. Southern Baptist churches teach it and preach it. However, since we have the Holy Spirit, we are able to resist his **temptations.*** Anyone who claims that Satan is winning is not using his/her God-given power to resist.
There are no simple answers, but when people pose this question to me, I simply respond… You don’t believe in Satan, You should… He believes in You.
There are many things I don’t believe, but that does not make them unreal, it just makes me feel more comfortable not having to think about them.
In the words of Baudelaire (and Keyser Söze)
“The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist.”
I would offer one of the best reasons for believing in the enemy is that is allows us to humanize people. Humans hurt but they area also hurting. Much of that work to oppress is done by the “enemy”. When we love, which is what Jesus calls us into, we’re destroying the works of the enemy by rejecting the invitation to be oppressed or to oppress. In other words, we’re rejecting the fight or flight reflex and becoming part of the solution.
One might think professing Christianity and denying the existance of Satan ideas in oppositin to one another. After all, the NT is very clear concerning the existance of Satan (not to mention way back in Genesis) and the fact that he is the ‘prince of the power of the air’ sho controls the current ‘world’ system and holds everyone who is apart from Christ in bondage/slavery to sin.
Previous comments are, I think, accurate in saying he is sometimes given too much credit for ‘bad stuff’. I think there are three enemies we face as Christians - the ‘world’, the ‘flesh’, and the ‘devil’.
Having said THAT, let me say that as believers in Christ, we are no longer under the power of Satan, that having been vanquished by the death and resurrection of our Lord.
Yes. I believe Satan is real. He is a person too, not just a force
we can be evil in 2 ways
we give into our own “flesh” - natural inclinations - fallen nature
we listen to a negative supernatural entity in our spirit, and we obey
My answer is based on 3 things
-the bible discusses him
-I have seen someone possessed by him, which is not pleasant
-I have personally seen a “thing” try to enter my room in the night , and I was not sleeping…I had awakened. It could not come near me because God protected me, and it left. But I will remember that experience.
marianne
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/
Oh, and as a follow on…
“..The greatest thing the devil ever did, was make people believe he was not real..”
There is alot of freedom to do what you want, when no one even thinks you exist.
My last comment on the subject… “…If you dance with the devil, the devil does not change, the devil changes you…”
Some people who don’t believe, or do believe but do not feel like they can be harmed by the devil, vastly under estimate his powers.
The funny thing is, I got all 3 of these quips from movies out of hollywood.
Its funny how movies could teach more about the devil than alot of churches…
And For those who want to fight the devil, remember the dance, you will lose. And The Arch Angel Michael would not even bring an accusing word against the devil, simply said the Lord Rebuke You.
God did not commision us to fight the devil, but to resist evil.
The Devil is real, and I fear his power, only when I am outside the will of God(and none of us stay in the will of God 24-7).
John, in direct answer to your question I do believe Satan is very real. I certainly believe that Jesus is real and that Matthew 4:1-11 talks about Satan tempting Jesus. I figure he wouldn’t make that part up, right?
The thing is: I am pretty certain that Satan is walking among us right now. Maybe not right here with me in my little cubicle at this very instant, but you know what I mean. I find it odd that we don’t have any honest dialogue in our churches and small groups about the reality of Satan. HE WANTS YOUR SOUL! When it comes right down to it, I find it odd that we don’t have any real discussions about righteousness, or right and wrong, or black and white. What are we (Christ followers) so stinking afraid of?
Let’s get on with it people! We can love the sinner and hate the sin. There is no gray area here! When it comes to sin, it’s God’s way or satan’s way. Pick one! Love your neighbors for all your worth, but don’t sell them short by pulling punches about the rest of God’s commandments.
“God did not commision us to fight the devil, but to resist evil.” -Barry
There are some ministers who are directly called to battle the enemy. Other believers should be cautious about spiritual warfare beyond resisting evil. On the other hand, if you find yourself in a face-to-face confrontation you have all the power of heaven in the Name of Jesus. “Greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.”
I would be sure that all your sins are confessed and covered by the power of the blood shed on the cross.
I believe satan exists. It’s in the Bible. I think Shush and Pastor Dave made great points warning against giving Satan too much credit. It is not easy to blame one’s own nature or faults when there is a silent scapegoat like the Devil to pass the blame too, and we do it all too often.
Jonathanbrink, what a great point!!! It is also too easy for Christians to heap blame or condemnation on others who may be facing great evil in their own lives without a victorious God to help them.
Besides the Bible, the main reason I believe Satan exists is this. I have experienced some crazy stuff that I can only explain two ways: I am crazy or Satan is real! And no one in my life seems to think I am crazy for now, I do believe Satan is real not only because the Bible says so but because of personal experiences.
Two perspectives you might find interesting. One is from Dick Gregory, who simply notes that growing up religion focused a lot on satan and evil. (Transcribed):
In other words, focusing on evil might not be the most productive thing to do.
A second perspective is from a non-Christian tradition. Satan is sometimes portrayed simply as one’s individual ego. So thinking about it in a mystical sense, the struggle between God and satan is simply a struggle to recognize the divine within, and let go of the grasping ego.
So Dan, do you feel that we are all god and we just need to let that inner divine nature come out and then we will all be OK?
John,
Hell yeah!
But seriously, #16 and #20 bears out some of my own experiences. I read too much Carlos Casteneda I wish I could now unread.
Went through the “Freedom in Christ” series recently and repeated my renunciation of Satan and his league of fallen angels (how’s that - I didn’t say “Minions” - which reminds me of foul-tasting and malodorous breath mints).
This post deals with serious issues. Thanks be to God that there is protection in God and His power.
-Sam
Now now, Dave. Dan didn’t say that. He described, not prescribed. Let’s not let Satan let us pick fights.
Just curious.
By the way John, I think the devil planted some peppers in my garden one time. They were devilshly hot!
“My first six years as a Christian I attended a very large, old, rich, conservative Presbyterian church in downtown San Diego. Not once in those six years did I hear Satan mentioned from the pulpit. For the last six years, I’ve attented a very large, old, rich, liberal Episcopal church just outside downtown San Diego. Not once in those six years…”
666…Wow! The evil one is in the topic for today.
Satan exists to acknowledge that there is something as God.
Samhain: Oh, shoot. I thought you’d missed a six, and went and bolded it for you. But now I see the one you missed made for the FOURTH “six” I mentioned.
Well, still. If 666 connotes the devil, 6666 must be REALLY bad!!!
There’s the passage somewhere in there about “your enemy, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion” or something like that. I do believe Lucifer exists and became Satan and all that (and while we’re at it, the minions, demons, and chives)…but I agree with whomever said that he probably doesn’t look like the stereotypical ‘evangelical’ portrayal.
As to Satan being mentioned in church…there are a whole lot of folks who view everything thru a lens of “Satan’s doing such-and-such” to explain EVERY bad or difficult occurrence. I wouldn’t go that far–we just don’t know the reasons for everything God allows. I think it’s a healthy thing to be aware that yes, as Christians we have an enemy who wants to pretty much do all the damage he can, which is why it’s so important for us to deliberately pursue Christ and rest in his protection.
And 333 is only half as bad.
Simple answer to the question: God’s revealed Word says Satan exists, therefore…Satan exists. Too many questions are answered with the phrase “I think.” Now…while it’s important to think…it’s also important to make sure our thoughts fit within the boundaries of God’s Word. Our thoughts change based on the slightest of circumstances…God’s Word endures forever.
Trying to think if I’ve heard/preached messages on Satan. I’ve mentioned him is sermons and/or devotionals, but why preach about Satan when I can preach on the majesty of a sovereign God?
6666 - The Shore Code - Coming Soon
Jesus talks about Satan as real, that is not just in parables. He does speak about him in parables too (e.g., the thief who does not enter thru the gate). I do like your take on your own struggles. Also, whatever prodding and tempting he may be guilty of, in the end I would have to consciously choose (free will) to sin. So whether that temptation comes from within or without, I am responsible for my choices.
well john you’ve never been in any of the churches i’ve been in, they all have mentioned and taught about that greatest of losers satan.wendy blue above has a very solid answer to this question, as does the post of debese, but however, the holy bible has the best answer of all, GOD can not by his nature lie to us, therefore if we have trouble believing him who can we believe? bill gates/bush/etc. etc.but i guess all the different versions of the bible out there are really misleading on this subject, i tend to stick with one version, the KJV, not the new kjv either and i use other study aids as well.i realise that back in the ot GOD wiped out a bunch of people, well a whole world of people, ie;the great flood. not to mention all those israile conquests.but there again as with JOB satan has to gain permission from GOD to do any bad thing to those that are in the family of faith.oh yes he can and does tempt us everyday, and tries to influence our very thought life.evil is alive and flourishing throught the world. look at the ones who think they are doing GOD a service by killing all the unbelievers of thier perverse religion. The bible talks about that too.in rev. islamist call christians ”people of the book” but at the same time they have thier own ”book” do they not? we as christians are much more than just people of the book, you know what i’m saying without all the broken down detail.if you ever have any doubts about your faith, beliefs, etc i urge you to gain counseling asap, and of course prayer.we as christians must know and learn how to defend our faith.that comes with study, study, study.staying in context, my own mother when i was a child used to twists scripture to fit her arguement. today there are certain things we still don’t agree on, but i still offer up prayer for her, i still call her ‘mom’ still visit her still concerned about her.i have came in contact with a possed person and his possesed dog. that is another story. well anyway, rest assured that we as christians have the victory her, now, then and forever. keep the faith, never give up or in.-harv
I believe he is real. It is what The Word states in many places. I trust Christ to keep Him away from me.
A thought: When I was unsaved, I did not have this mind war going on. It does not always happen, but believers will know what I am speaking of here. Times of testing do come to everyone who is saved by the Blood of Christ. The enemy would do anything in his power to make us doubt and trip us up. He can no longer have our spirit which is saved for the day of redemption…but he sure tries at times to get us believing our salvation is not real. The closer I am to Jesus…the more faith I have to withstand those darts.
Hmm. I’m kinda like John. I am rather ambivalent about Satan. If he does exist I don’t believe he is capable of any more evil than mankind is on their own. And I don’t think we need Satan to help us create evil.
Personally, I think Satan is a metaphor for not just evil, but the ego. The part of us that is more concerned about ‘me’ than ‘you’ or ‘God’. In this regard Satan is always whispering in my ear, trying to lead me astray, telling me that I am more important than God. And when we give in to Satan, when many selfish and proud people join together, such as we’ve seen Nazi Germany, Afghanistan, and Wounded Knee then he is like a lion that devours everything in his path.
When Jesus talks of Satan, or we hear of his struggle with Satan in the desert, this metaphor still works. Besides, the Jews had a very different picture of Satan than the popular church has.
But then again, maybe he’s real.
No. I don’t believe Satan is real.
He makes for a really interesting literary character, though.
I grew up in the Bible belt, and seemingly all you hear about is satan, the devil, etc.
Makes you think there is a demon under every rock and behind every bush.
On the above note, there are two pieces of literature I think everyone must read.
The first is “Paradise Lost”. You can’t help but root for Lucifer. Not because he necessarily has any redeeming qualities, but because he’s the underdog who was brave enough to stand up to the omnipotent.
Next, check out the Pulitzer Prize winning play “J.B.” by Archibald MacLeish. Great retelling of the Job story, of which Satan, or at least a Satan-like character, takes a great part in.
“I think the whole idea of an evil entity existing out in the world is pure hogwash,” he said. “What do you think?”
There are a lot of evil entities in the world. They murder, rape, steal, deceive, lie, corrupt others and I have not personally seen any of them. Oh, yes, I have seen pictures of a few of them; I was truly amazed none of them wore red, had horns, or other stereotypical things.
Jesus told his disciples: I and my father are one; when you have seen me you have seen my Father; what I see my Father doing that is what I do. The backward minded disciples reversed it by saying anyone who practices sin is of the devil. When you see evil-doers, you see Satan. Why? Because they (we that used to be) are under his tutelage.
If anyone wants to know how real Satan is, ask a Satanist. They ought to know. Speaking of which, I remember listening to an author who interviewed a one of their priests. The author asked what a Satanist is? If memory serves correctly, the priest defined a Satanist as anyone who did whatever they wanted knowing it was contrary to God, God’s words, or anything other law or standard. That is what secularists do in practice and policy. Philip Hamburger’s tasty book “Separation of Church and State” not only cover the legal history of the subject but he also show why secularist and their Separation is an inverted religion of Christianity. Although he was only pointing to the religious nature of secularists, his example show the same kind of practice as Satanism.
One last point, a friend in college was at Kent State University during the riots when the National Guard killed a number of students. He got bumbed-out about incident. Looking for some sort of answer, he eventual started messing around with tarot card and ouija board. The dial moved or whatever in answer to questions and the like. At some point, he heard about the gospel and eventually answer the call of Christ to faith in the affirmative. Shortly thereafter something came into his room at night while he was asleep, he woke up while it picked him up and slammed him into the wall. He swears no human was in the room. His pastor told him it was the devil attempting to scare him out of his commitment to God and Christ. If no evil entity exists, what was it that happen to him? An earthquake? An hallucination?
“The author asked what a Satanist is? If memory serves correctly, the priest defined a Satanist as anyone who did whatever they wanted knowing it was contrary to God, God’s words, or anything other law or standard. That is what secularists do in practice and policy.”
Well…kinda. I would imagine a Satanist believes in god, so that’s a big difference.
Of course, a secularist is not necessarily an atheist, so you may have me there.
John,
I do believe he is real; not just because of the narrative beliefs taught through the bible but also because we do at times see things even outside of the human nature at work it seems.
At times I think of Newtons theories on relativity for every action there is on opposite reaction. can we see this in the natural I question? Day and night, love and hate, good and evil. I find it interesting when I think in terms like this, as God describes himself as light, love, goodness and describes the devil as darkness, the father of all lies, evil.
I believe there to be too much proof of evil outside of human nature or perhaps extreme human mature that would support the spiritual idea of and angel gone bad. I think where many mistake this idea in in thinking that he is the opposite of God, he may oppose but he is not equal to (having the same powers as) the creator, look at Job as an example.
I have experienced some things in my life (night terrors) that with all the scientific explanations still seems lacking for a true explanation. I am not sure why I have experienced these things, but many times they’ve happened when I was asleep and some when I was not, it’s beyond my grasp of understanding.
i love blogs like this. so many comments and opinions from such eloquent writers.
in my opinion, satan is not real. both the good and bad in the world are of God’s nature. for those that believe the biblical example of satan’s angelic beginnings… one would also have to question the power of God, since lucifer did indeed fall from grace. i don’t know why we have to label things…god=good, devil=evil? can’t we all just preach compassion?
Yes, I believe Satan is real. “Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the Word of God.”
Daniel - I’m completely for the separation of church and state. And I am hardly a Satanist - even at times call myself a Christian (though at other times the idea makes me shudder), We tend to think that when Christians get cozy with government that we can influence it. Much more often (always?) government ends up influencing Christianity. A little off track but what the heck.
Bohemianprose - darkness does not exist - it is a non-entity. Light fills the darkness like air fills a vacuum. Is evil what we have when goodness is removed from human action, when we turn our back on God’s ‘light’? It’s a twisting, a warpage of what originally was good. Can it exist alone as a tangible presence, apart from some ‘actor’?
Satan - he had a lot to do with many of the Church’s atrocities through out history. Or at least the Church’s obsession with rooting him out did.
Yes, you do always post a stunner. I have to disagree with Dan C that professing Christians must, by definition, believe in Satan. The only argument that makes some rational sense is that if God is real Satan is likely to be real. But there are many, many ways to blow holes in that one (Morse? ideas? you always have good ones and my brain-on-grad-school is just too tired!).
But many, many believers do not take the Hebrew or Christian scriptures as completely literal. I can’t disagree with them.
It’s like watching a football game. They’re both playing the same game based on the same silly (to me) myth. It’s just a question of which team you’re rooting for.
I’m reading Pleasing God by R.C. Sproul and am on the chapter about the devil (aka Satan). Sproul writes:
A second image we have of Satan is of a roaring lion who goes about seeking whom he will devour (1Peter 5:8). Notice that the same figure that is used for Christ, the lion, is used by Satan, the archtype of the Antichrist. The anti-lion devours. The Lion of Judah redeems.
With both allusions to the lion we find a symbol of strength, though with Satan it is an evil, demonic strength. His strength is no matich for Christ, but it is a strength that is certainly superior to ours. He is not as strong as Christ, but he is stronger than we are.
There are two frequent ways that Satan deceives us. On the one hand he will seek to have us underestimate his strength. On the other hand there are times that he seeks to have us overestimate his strength. In either event he deceives us and can trip us up.
I thought that was worth quoting.
I really think we need to look at what the Bible says about this…
Job: 1:9-12 “So the Metaphor answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? … But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the LORD said to the Metaphor, “Behold, all that he has is in your Metaphorical power; only do not lay a Metaphorical hand on his person. So the Metaphor went out from the presence of the LORD.”
1 Peter 5:8
“Be sober, be vigiant; because a Metaphorical Construct walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”
Matthew 4:5 “Then the Metaphor took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple”
Matthew 13:39
“The enemy who sowed them is a Metaphor , the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.”
Matthew 15:21
“And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely Metaphor-possessed.”
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Metaphor and his other metaphors”
John 8:44 “The Methphor was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth… When the Metaphor speaks a lie, It speaks from Its own resources, for the Methaphor is a liar and the father of it”
Timothy 3:2-6
“A bishop then must be blameless, … not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the Metaphor.”
Hebrews 2:14
“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Metaphor”
James 4:7 “Resist the Metaphor, and it will flee from you.”
You have to admire the Biblical writers, coming from diverse time periods and perspectives, for clinging so faithfully to Metaphor of Satan instead of coming out and saying what they really meant.
Even Jesus will not even drop the “metaphoric” use of the word devil when He is giving the LITERAL interpretation of his own metaphor/parable of the Tares.(Matthew 13))
Pastor Dave,
John has it right, just describing some interesting takes, although I do think using the struggle between God and Satan described in the bible as a metaphor is a very interesting tool.
Especially since some Satanists consider their religion simply a worship of ego and selfishness. Contrast this with the theme of selflessness found in *parts* of the Bible (and in many religions), and you’ll find an argument over ethics that focuses more on ethical approaches to self and others, rather than focusing on actions that are inherently good or evil.
One thing I find fascinating is the implications of evil in religious doctrine. For example, one of the more frequent comparisons one finds puts Christianity up next to Manicheanism, which protrays the relationship between Good and Evil in a wholly different light. What does it say about the world if good and evil are evenly matched? How about if good has more power than evil, or the other way around?
My theory is Saten was pinned down to the bottom of hell where here is constantly pissed off at God for being punished this way. But God made one mistake, he allowed demons to escape into our world. They may not be as powerful as Saten, but they can do some dirty nasty work. They can effect what comes out of people’s mouths, the thoughts they get into their heads and what they actually do. Just turn on the TV and the effects of demons in this world are naked for all to see.
Read any of Carl Jung’s work on archetypes and the whole God/Satan GoodGuy/BadGuy game seems more sensible to me.
Second Michele,
Does this mean Cliche sits at the left hand of Metaphor? Does Simile sit at the right?
Sorry, could not resist.
I do believe in a literal Satan but wish we could stop this witch hunt and instead stand firm and protected by God. Not to downplay satanic influences - but by the power of God’s Holy Spirit we should take inventory of our lives and rid ourselves of our self-generated sin.
That’s my take on what I read in the Bible - what I believe the best book to base my life on. Satan can tempt, oppress and probably cause tornadoes (I love to read Job, seriously), but not MAKE a Christian sin.
Outside of scripture, personal experiences like those related above have convinced me. I won’t argue Lucifer’s existence anymore than that. Others are doing a better job.
I like what Petra (contemporary Christian band) did on one of their vinyl albums with backward masking.
When turning the Petra record backward a message would be heard saying “What are you looking for the devil for when you ought to be looking for the Lord?”
-Sam
Second Michele -
Great post! Good points all.
You forgot the one from Rev 12 “And there was war in heaven. Michael and His angels fought against the metaphor and his angels… woe woe to those who dwell on the earth for the metaphor has come down to you knowing that he has a short time”.
To John Shore’s topic –
The answer is incredibly simply - the Bible says the devil is “real”.
The REAL question is — will Christians always choose to “believe the Bible” - or are some Christians “mixing in” some musings of their own with what the Bible actuallly says and then claim it all came from the Bible??
Bob
If you take religion seriously there are two questions for every topic.
1. Do you even know what the Bible says on this subject? To “know it” you have to embrace something like “exegesis” — the practice/rules/method of accurately stating the position a given author/ book/chapter of scripture on a given subject.
2. Do you care what the Bible says - or do you simply mix in your own musings and call “the mixture” your “belief”?
For example:
Hindus would not “care a lot” about what the Bible says — but that same Hindu WOULD highly value their own “musings” as the final word no matter how the Bible addressed the topic in question.
Bob
But, Bob–isn’t the entire idea of exegesis simply a human theory about what might possibly make up the practice/rules/method which are constantly changing over time? There is no way to accurately state what any author/book/chapter is trying to say on any given subject because we are 1,900-2,800 years removed from those authors, their cultures and the situations in which they wrote.
Paul understood Jesus’ teaching not through having ever known him in life, but by his conversion and his Platonic leanings. Then Augustine came along and gave us a new view of Paul. Now we filter our beliefs about Jesus through at least those two layers…and two thousand years of men saying “This is what God means.”
I can believe, but I don’t get there through exegesis.
Hi, John.
Congratulations on coming up with successive posts that elicit/stimulate/provoke very thoughtful responses. Your blog is great not just because of the posts, but also because of the comments. Great job, man!
God bless you!
I know quite a few Christians who believe in Satan, at least enough to tell me that (since i am a none Christian) I worship him (funny since i don’t believe in the Christian devil) and he has lead me astray with his lies (boils done to my religious beliefs being lies foisted onto me by the ‘devil”)
Hi, Mel. Thank you very much for your generous words. And you’re right; this group of comments has, I think, been the best group ever. It’s been a real pleasure to follow. Thanks again for your encouragement.
Tam: Man, I hope not TOO many Christians have told you that you worship Satan. I would imagine that if I were Satan, nothing would delight me more than to hear a professed Christian accuse an innocent non-Christian of worshipping me. It’d be like killing two birds with one stone.
“One might think professing Christianity and denying the existance of Satan ideas in opposition to one another.” was Dan C’s quote. He didn’t actually say “professing Christians must, by definition, believe in Satan”. The phrase “one might think” is not a positive assertaion/statement.
Maybe I give the belief in demons the belief that causes many of them to exist. There might be a logical explanation for many negative happenings.
Morgan, the idea of demons existing is not terribly logical…whether one were to wish them into existence or if they were to exist by themselves.
Second Michelle, good points (and pretty witty, to boot) but the Bible is full of other metaphores that are spoken about as if they were ‘real’. And why not, since the metaphor immediately creates in us an understanding which is lost when we try to explain things literally.
For example, did Moses really see the backside of God as described in Exodus 33?
Is Jesus a literally a path, a way, a door?
Does God have a hand that can stretch out over all of Job’s life? Does God have a face? Since we are in his image, does God have hands, and feet? When we are called his hands and feet, are we really hands and feet?
Is there really going to be a ‘lake of fire’, or is that just a great description for the truly indescribable?
Rather than replacing the word Satan with the word metaphor, try some other words that work just as well, maybe even better. Words like ego, or ‘the self’. Pride.
Satan as an autonomous Being with a personality? Nah. I don’t believe in an entity named “Satan.” The “concept” of Satanism exists but then ALL concepts exist. If it can be conceived of it “exists.” Dwell on it to much and it sucks up your energy like a Hoover.
“Satanic” is anything that separates one’s consciousness from the awareness of the Divine, connected, sentient ALL TRUTH.
“Satanists” derive pleasure from separating and isolating and the brutal things that result from our forgetting. Malicious lies, obfuscation, confusion, distraction.
False dichotomies are Satanic.
The Big Lies that lead people toward cruelty and war are Satanic.
The Powers that Be ruling the world in George Orwell’s 1984 were Satanic: “War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.” The “Ministry of Truth” was staffed by Satanists.
The forces that led to the Tower of Babel debacle were Satanic.
“The War on Terror” is Satanic.
Satanists slither the halls of the White House as we speak.
Do I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. Yes. Were it not for the Divine revelation of the Word I would not know about Christ Jesus. God’s Word further reveals many things that we cannot observe at will, test, measure, quantify or qualify.
The Bible teaches that there is a spiritual realm (unseen) which exists and is most prominently populated by God. I believe in God the Son - Christ Jesus and I believe in God the Father I also believe in God the Holy Spirit, three Personal Entities in the spiritual realm. The Bible, God’s Word, reveals this to us.
God’s Word, the Bible also reveals the existence of spirit beings, angels, demons, cherubim, seraphim and Lucifer who became Satan. He is also alluded to or spoken of as the king of Tyre in one place in Holy Scripture.
To comprehend and understand spiritual things we must go to the Word of God and humbly ask God’s guidance as we study.
1 Peter 5:5 NIV Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV, The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Peter 1:20, 21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
God has promoted His Word to the highest place of authority:
Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth and faithfulness; for You have exalted above all else Your name and Your word and You have magnified Your word above all Your name! Amplified Bible.
We should lay aside tradition, unbelief and personal opinion and humbly seek knowledge from the correct source, the Word of God. God values His word so much he refers to His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the Word, God’s Communication to man.
God’s Word is always under attack by the sophistries of Satan. If Satan can cast doubt on God’s Word, if he can cause us to be skeptical of God’s Word then he can lead us into much error.
So I guess the question is not, ‘do I believe in Satan’ so much as, ‘do I believe in the veracity of the Holy Scriptures, God’s Word’. And the the answer to that question is, ‘I do believe’.
Yeah, I think Satan is real. But, I think christians are for the most part meaner than Satan.
dsrtrosy -
Exegesis is simply an objective logical approach to finding out what the text is saying - it does not argue so much for “and now that you know what the Bible says - choose to believe it”.
When you read a math book a How-to book a cook book a set of “instructions” you can not constantly claim “I have no idea what this means and each person will prefer to think of it differently” and get anwhere in a civilized world. There have to be agreed upon standards of reason and logic - and that is what Exegesis relies upon — it does not change.
Finding “what the text says” is easy and if you use this objective method then it is actually very precise.
Choosing to take the time to find out what it really says is another story
Choosing to accept what you read is yet another story entirely.
Bob
Clyde -
That was a good factual post.
By contrast we do get a lot of “well I think maybe.. I think mabye” musings on the topic. And those posts are also interesting to see the degree to which people consider this topic at a casual level.
Anyone who places very little value on what the Bible says - certainly has no reason to get too worked up over the topic of Satan and his angels.
Bob
Christian -
You asked -
“Is Jesus a literally a path, a way, a door?
Does God have a hand that can stretch out over all of Job’s life? Does God have a face? Since we are in his image, does God have hands, and feet? When we are called his hands and feet, are we really hands and feet?
Is there really going to be a ‘lake of fire’, or is that just a great description for the truly indescribable?”
In John 10 when Christ said “I am the door” and in John 14 “I AM the Way the TRUTH and the Life” we can see the clear meaning in the text. Nobody is the least bit tempted to “suppose that Christ is a big wooden door”. So that is a case where metaphore is well accepted and clear.
But is “God a metaphore” is “salvation a metaphore” is the virgin birth the resurrection — in fact any and ALL the basics of the Christian religion “just a collection of metaphores that can be imagined into anything one wishes since that religion has no real substance to it to start with”??
Just because “a metaphore exists today” does not mean that we can turn the tax code of Virginia “into another metaphore” and stop paying taxes.
This is why I keep getting back to exegesis. The Christian religions-that-be have already solved this problem of determining what the Bible is really saying –
That is no longer the “problem”.
The problem in each group now is — “what to do about it”.
Everyone comes to the Bible “with some prior bias” and “wants to see something” that confirms prior world-views rather than simply taking the text for what it says.
That is the real issue —
Bob
Demons are simply fallen angels who are lead by Lucifer (Satan).
All of them were Created as sinless perfect Angels — all of them chose rebellion. The future Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation 20 is “real” (or I should say - will be real).
Evil angels have been confined to this world according to Revelation 12.
Evil angels are “held in check” by a system of rules that God has setup even for this fallen world.
God’s knowledge and power are “infinite”.
Satan although created as a superior life form to humans is still finite - in every sense of the word both in intelligence and in power.
Bob
Seems today I’ve been going around putting 2cents in. I don’t know what it’s worth, but I ran across you all talking about satan. Before Christ, I was afraid/and made aware of darkness. As a family, we “saw” stuff… ghosts, fearful experiences, even what seems a stereotyped form of what looked like the “grim reaper”. Of the seven of us and parents/ancestors, some dabbled in the occult in one form or another. A week before I was born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, I had a visit from a local satanist in my drive with friends in the dark, when I was home alone with my 2 yr. old. I was seeking the Lord and wanting to know if He was real, evidently it brought up hell too. When I saw these people in car outside my door, I investigated and when they saw me, they pulled out of my drive, and burned tires roaring off. Before they pulled forward I was looking and somehow saw in the spirit? realm, or perhaps satan decided to reveal himself as the spirit inside the man driving the car. Kind of like thermography…able to see into the dark this being. Later found out that the man was wanted by police, and that I should ask for “extra protection” around my home should I see them again. (I did) I was fasted state (not purposely and for weeks) and perhaps this made some difference in my discerning this. There is more to this story, but I am trying to say that I’ve had some “experiential” thing going on when it comes to the reality of darkness as a persona. I do not go looking for it, but if the Lord brings it up, or gives me a word about something I try to pray and follow up. There was such a time in ‘91 on a conversation with a Christian friend discussing this same subject. She insisited that Christians need to understand spiritual warfare, and deliverance of demonic spirits. I said I did not believe out of fear of discussing satan, maybe because of my earlier experience. I did not believe in deliverance for sure at the time. After we talked a couple days later, I was trying to nap on a muggy July afternoon on the couch, and while awake saw a demon pop it’s head out of my livingroom wallpaper and from my right came a wash of blood as if being thrown out of a bucket onto the demon, and it vanished. A vision? Have had physical manifestations, like invisible weights of beings sitting on my back while sleeping or another time suffocating me while I slept, and inside screeming out to Jesus although I could not breath at all. A sense of darkness there when it left. I have cast a demon out of a 103 yr. old woman. I was just thinking about her minutes before I ran across this blog. She asked why I thought God had let her live so long. I asked if she knew the Lord… “yes… I went to the Methodist church all my life” Some people disagree with this approach, but I asked her if she had ever confessed she was a sinner, asked forgiveness, and received Christ as her Savior, asking Him to live in her. She said so matter of fact… ” I am not a sinner.” So I prayed for wisdom. Nothing came. We continued a conversation. Asked about family. She told me about her daughter that had cared for her up until recent and how hard her daughter’s life had been, that her husband had beat her. She was obviously still very angry about this, and I so naively asked her if she had ever forgiven her son-in-law. Suddenly I had Linda Blair on my hands. She rose up off the bed (she was blind and very weak at 103 and near end of her life) and in a very hoarse (Linda Blair) voice said with eyes blazing at me “I hate him!!! I hate him!!! I’ll never forgive him!!!” I wanted to RUN. I didn’t need much discernment to see and hear this demon(s?) Praying, I asked what to do… felt so inadequate… but somehow I got up nerve to say ” In Jesus name, I take authority over this spirit of hate and unforgiveness, and command you to release this woman’s mind to the Spirit of truth in Jesus name.” After a few seconds of thinking of my next step, I just tried it again…” Alice, would you like to pray to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior? ” “Yes” And so we prayed again. When I said repeat after me ” Lord Jesus, forgive me… I am a sinner, and need you to save me from my sin…” Just like a child, she said the words and there was no hint of reluctance or anger at all. There is a spiritual gift in 1 Cor.12, called discerning of spirits. I really didn’t know what that would be, until experiencing it. I have seen them exposed in people’s eyes (one time my own daughter… who after words of knowledge about spirits controlling her, she came to the Lord at 20 yrs. old), and sometimes others. I do not look for them. The Lord leads me to them and to the people held captive by them. It’s part of our life in Christ. Right now, after years of no such instances, the Lord has asked me to pray for a brother who I believe God has shown me has an unclean spirit blocking his decision to follow Christ and be healed. This is a brother that believes in Christ and prays and reads the Bible. He is not an overcomer though. He is held by strongholds in his life. I will end my story here, but this brought up the demoniac Legion. I haven’t thought a whole lot after, but one time I thought that his story revealed that he was a believer. I know he recognized Jesus, and “fell down… and worshipped” him. Jesus explained in another place about repentance without being filled… one demon out/7 more in… that it only takes I think 4 or 5 times of cleaning them out and not filling up the void with God’s Spirit? Multiplies out to 2000 plus demons…
My wife’s family has a history in the occult (from one of the Islands of the Caribbean). Some pretty scary stories about what happened in their family prior to being saved and converting to Christianity.
In the Bible the story about 1 demon leaving and seven worse demons returning — is a case where someone is freed from demon posession then (according to Christ) that demon returns and finds the house (house of the soul) swept clean and empty. Then taking 7 demons worse than himself he returns and takes up residence.
Christ’s point was that when someone is freed they are not to simply be idle - they should not allow the empty house to remain a target but should fill the house of the soul with the things of God — especially with the Spirit of God who is Himself infinite in power and wisdom. Paul says that as Christians we are to be “filled with the Spirit” and we see that in his own life in places like Galatians 2:20.
Bob
First of all John,
“I don’t care if Satan is real or not,I tend to have zero interest in questions I know can’t be answered.”
Well that’s interesting because in one of your last posts you asserted that we cannot know if there is God or not. But your interest in God seems to be quite above zero. Weird.
windy blue @#6 “But, as we see in Job, Satan can’t do anything unless God gives his permission.”
Wow so it is God that allows all the evil to happen. I knew it.
Now my humble opinion. There are demons in our heads, there are gods in our heads. They are thoughts emotions phantasies. Some beutiful goo inspiring and some terrible , vicious mean. That’s all there is.
To me God , Satan, Jesus, FSM, Zeus, Krishna etc. are excuses invented to avoid the anavoidable: Responsibility for our existence.
One of the best explanations of Satan I have ever heard is this one by my pastor/friend in Claremore, OK.
There are two diametrically opposed kingdoms. One is Gods’ and one is Satan’s. Every thing we do forwards one or the other kingdom. So, if I am doing something that is against God, I am forwarding Satan’s kingdom and vice versa.
I do believe in Satan because the Bible is clear that he exists but also because I am a modern day Mary Magdalen story. In 1998 I was delivered and set free and have never been the same since.
Cliverty- please show me where a belief in an actual being called Satan is essential to following Jesus. The seven and one story of demonic possession has been interpreted differently.
Dominique - Praise God that you have been saved from your destructive past life. But…how does this support the idea that Satan is real ? And the Bible is very ‘clear’ about a lot of things - the Tpwer of Bable, the Flood, Lot’s wife turning into salt. But many Christians do not see them all as factual. Are these damnable mistakes?
Hey John,
This is an interesting post. I don’t really understand where you were going with it though. “Does Satan Exist?”. To me, from a Christian perspective, this question doesn’t make any sense. It’s like an IT professional, refusing to believe in wireless! (Please excuse the dodgy metaphor, I think it works though). The existence and realism of Satan is a no-brainer. People at my church talk about Satan, and the forces of evil. etc. all the time. The Bible certainly talks about it a lot! As was said above, Jesus was tempted by Satan. Satan and God had a conversation in the Book of Job. Evil spirits, and demons have possessed people.
John, I don’t understand why you wrote this. The answer to this question is just so blatantly obvious. Anyway, I don’t want to rustle any feathers. Thanks for posting, I enjoyed reading it. I’m looking forward to your next work.
Talk to you soon,
Jared
John,
Once again I totally enjoy reading what you have to say and the conversation it stirs.
I was raised going to a Presbyterian church in central California, and we were definately taught about Satan as if he could be standing right beside us. Now I listen to Christian radio, and they discuss him all the time. What I don’t recall is ever getting the “fire and brimstone, hell and damnation” sermons that my mother talks about hearing in my great uncle’s Pentacostal church. I do believe in the devil and that his handywork lies just around the corner. It’s up to us to choose who we shall follow.
Christian -
You said
“Cliverty- please show me where a belief in an actual being called Satan is essential to following Jesus. The seven and one story of demonic possession has been interpreted differently.”
1. Jesus speaks to the subject and reality of Satan numerous times in the gospel and the gospel writers point out the real personal exchanges between the two of them. See Matt 4. When you ask if you can believe Jesus without believing what He said about Satan you are proposing a self-conflicted solution.
2. When you point out that “there are different interpretations” you are correct — just as some accept the Genesis account in Genesis 1 and some do not. Some accept the flood account in Gen 7 and some do not — the same goes for the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of the Bible etc etc.
But that is NOT because “the text is so vague you can’t tell what you are reading”. Rather it is because people abandon the practice of exegesis entirely when it comes to bringing bias to the text and then trying to bend the text to fit a preference.
Bob
In other words, it is necessary for the something to be factual in order for it to be true? Yet we can discern the truth in Jesus’ parables while knowing that they did not occur. I don’t disbelieve what Jesus said about Satan, I just see Satan a differently than you. He also said that one cannot serve both God and Money and I don’t see Money as being a sentient being, either.
It is not important to me to argue against the existence of Satan, or Hell or demons. Just as I am not concerned that many people believe in the factuality of Genesis 1, or the Flood Account or Lot’s wife. As long as we understand and agree upon the truth that is enveloped within these stories then we can go forward.
I would never suggest that someone who holds to a firm belief in Satan (as my own wife does) is missing the boat when it comes to the Gospel of Christ. Just as I don’t think the person who holds to a strict and ‘literal’ (this word is mis-used in this regard) form of exegesis (and it’s just a different form, really - we are all guilty of eisegesis - it can’t be avoided) has the authority to claim that this is necessary for a ”correct” faith in Christ.
Someone once told me the Devil doesn’t need me to believe in him.
So I don’t.
St. Augustine argued that while good is, evil simply is not. Similarly, darkness is just the absence of light. So evil is simply the absence of good.
But does the devil exist? Yes and no. I believe that if the devil exists, it must be in some way that he exists without existing. In other words, the devil is so completely devoid of everything that his very non-existence is an entity. While some may consider this “existing through non-existence” a contradictory and irrational concept, what else would be the nature of a purely chaotic being other than a contradictory and irrational (non)existence?
That’s interesting, LP. I think another way of looking at the light vs.dark analogy is found in thermal dynamics. Heat is the result of action - it is a positive thing. Like life. There are varying degrees of heat present all the way down to (theoretically) Absolute Zero, at which point motion ceases. Inaction. Death.
If heat energy is analogous to God’s presence then the complete absence of God’s presence is cold death. Hell. Or as I see it, annihilation. We see evil as the varying degrees in which we deliberately remove God’s presence from our thoughts and actions. This must be an option for us if we are to be free. This is so deliberate on our part, and the results so horrendous, that it begins to take on the appearance of evil design.
Wow!
This is a large number of responses to a single blog entry. All abouth whether Satan really exists a s a person or being. While I know that there are diverse opinions about the subject, I would ask two questions:
1. Do we believe the Bible? Is it really God’s word? As the serpent asked Eve in the Garden of Eden, “Has God said…?
2. What does the Bible say about Satan? The answer to this is not as simple as one might think. Our beliefs about Satan are colored by Biblical interpretations, by Jewish and non Jewish traditions, by extrabiblical Christian traditions, and even by less than perfect interpretations of what the Bible says. If we peel away what we have heard and look at what the Bible says, then we will probably get a better picture of the identity of Satan. I certainly believe that what the Bible says indicates that he is a real being. However, the Bible does not say everything that Christians have believed and taught about him. I urge everyone who is interested in the subject to look at what the Bible actually says about it.
Don in SC
Christian said -
“In other words, it is necessary for the something to be factual in order for it to be true? ”
If the list of facts that a document provides are “true” are “correct” then the document is “correct”. If the document is full of “erroneous facts” then while it may assert many “facts” it’s assertions are false. Your question seems to imply the fallacy of an erroneous document being labled “true no matter what the facts”.
Simply does not work.
Christian said
” Yet we can discern the truth in Jesus’ parables while knowing that they did not occur.”
Indeed - in the case of Matt 18 and the illustration of “Forgiveness revoked” we see “details of a parable” and we also see the clear application of that parable. No problem with “knowing the details”. It is not as if “we are all confused and can not determine what the story is about or if it is simply a story”. It obviously is.
Christian
” I don’t disbelieve what Jesus said about Satan, I just see Satan a differently than you.”
When both the Gospel writer and Christ assert that Christ is speaking with Satan in Matt 4 — do you have any trouble at all seeinig the facts of the chapter? Is there some “question” as to whether Matt 4 begins with “imagine if you will a certain scenario where someone might be said to sort of speak to Satan as it were”??
IF the chapter began in such a way - one might take it literally while another takes it as a story - a parable.
No question that IF such a thing had happened in there - there could be some differences as to what was “story” and what is given as fact.
A “key principle” in the precise method of exegesis is to first honestly admit to the obvious intent of the author to his own first century reader. It is clear for example in Matt 4 that the author is not presenting a “pretend story” to his reader.
So on this bible topic — as on any Bible topic — step one is “what does the Bible actually say”.
Step two is — “what would you prefer to believe”.
There is no point in confusing step 1 with step 2.
Christian said
“It is not important to me to argue against the existence of Satan, or Hell or demons. Just as I am not concerned that many people believe in the factuality of Genesis 1, or the Flood Account or Lot’s wife. As long as we understand and agree upon the truth that is enveloped within these stories then we can go forward.”
I believe that all serious reviews of those topics will start with step 1 — What is actually said in the Bible (leaving bias and preference aside for an honest moment). In stating the facts of step 1 - we would need to be as precise and accurate as possible.
Step two is then “what do we prefer to believe about that”. And here again it pays to be precise stating why we would stray from the details of the text at times — to fit science assumptions, or bias, or preference etc.
For example the Bible says the Christ rose from the dead - but science shows clearly that this is not possible.
The Bible shows that Christ claims “I am the way the truth and the life .. no one comes to the Father but through Me” in John 14. But we know from the standards and norms of political correctness that this is not the most inclusive model for a religious system.
Many “reasons” to determine that one needs to diverge from what the text says. Still we “should” be able to state what it says.
Bob
Don said
“If we peel away what we have heard and look at what the Bible says, then we will probably get a better picture of the identity of Satan. I certainly believe that what the Bible says indicates that he is a real being. However, the Bible does not say everything that Christians have believed and taught about him.
I urge everyone who is interested in the subject to look at what the Bible actually says about it.”
Exactly!
Instead of clouding each of these Bible topics AS IF the Bible is “saying different things just because each of us chooses to believe different things” it would be much better to first state accurately what the text actually says — and then show where our own preferences and beliefs vary from the strict factual statements found in the text.
Bob
LP said
“But does the devil exist? Yes and no. I believe that if the devil exists, it must be in some way that he exists without existing.”
This is a perfect example of what I have called “step two” where we clearly state our own belief/preference/bias on the topic (as LP has done) rather than confusing that with what the Bible actually says regardinig the point under discussion.
Bob
John - you described my thoughts about Satan to a tee. Perfect. (How DO you do that?)
But your question was, “If you were me, how would you answer that question?”
I would answer it exactly as you did here in this blog. Then I’d give this website address so that they could read these other interesting opinions.
Does belief or non-belief require the devil exist? No. But if he/it does, then there must be some evidence to support those claiming the devil’s existence. If the devil does exist as the gospel say, then the devil an demons are persons. If persons, they may be known or make themselves known.
One of the more interesting stories in the gospel is the man who was possessed by a legion of demons. Some scholars see in this story a political message. First, the evils of Rome rule in Israel caused much suffering. This suffering made some people susceptible to mental and spiritual problems. The devil seeking to devour means seeking easy prey i.e, susceptible people. Second, Jesus delivering man from a legion of demons was in one sense symbol of Jesus as Messiah delivering the people of God from the oppression of Roman rule. This view does not negate the existence of spirit-beings oppressing people. It just means that Satan and demons are part of the complex evils and misery of human life.
Those who deny the existence of spirits do not know they do not exist. Deceiving spirit deceive the deceived in order to accomplish a purpose, but the Indonesian monk who rose from the dead a few years said he saw Buddha in hell and Peter told him that Jesus Christ is the only reason people make to heaven.