Last year I posted a notice on Craigslists all over the country saying … well, exactly this: “I’m about three months away from finishing a book I’m writing for a large, established, reputable Christian book publisher. [I had to say this true thing so that people would take it seriously.] It’ll be my third published book. This one is about the relationship that generally exists between Christians and non-Christians. In it I want to incorporate maybe thirty 100-250 word statements wherein non-Christians–in their own words, in casual, straight-ahead, first-person style–say what they think of Christians generally–and specifically how they feel about the dynamic wherein Christians try to convert them. I want to be very clear that this is NOT a Christian-bashing book; I wouldn’t have sold it to such a prominent Christian publishing house if it were. It’s coming from a place that only means well for everyone. Thanks.”
Within about four days I had in my inbox over 300 statements from non-Christians. I found they made for some seriously depressing reading. Here are some of them:
“The main thing that baffles and angers me about Christians is how they can understand so little about human nature that when, in their fervor to convert another person, they tell that person (as they inevitably do, in one way or another), ‘You’re bad, and wrong, and evil,’ they actually expect that person to agree with them. It pretty much guarantees that virtually the only people Christians can ever realistically hope to convert are those with tragically low self-esteem.”— E.S., Denver
“I feel that Christians have got it all wrong; it seems to me that they’ve created the very thing Jesus was against: Separatism.”— T. O., Denver
“I am often distressed at the way some Christians take as a given that Christians and Christianity define goodness. Many of we non-Christians make a practice of doing good; we, too, have a well-developed ethical system, and are devoted to making the world a better place. Christians hardly have a monopoly on what’s right, or good, or just.”— C.R., Seattle
“Christians seem to have lost their focus on Jesus’ core message: ‘Love the Lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.’”— R.M., Tacoma, WA
“I have no problem whatsoever with God or Jesus—only Christians. It’s been my experience that most Christians are belligerent, disdainful and pushy.” — D.B., Atlanta
“Whenever I’m approached by an evangelist—by a Christian missionary—I know I’m up against someone so obsessed and narrowly focused that it will do me absolutely no good to try and explain or share my own value system. I never want to be rude to them, of course, but never have any idea how to respond to their attempts to convert me; in short order, I inevitably find myself simply feeling embarrassed—first for them, and then for us both. I’m always grateful when such encounters conclude.”— K.C., Fresno, CA.
“I don’t know whether or not most of the Christians I come across think they’re acting and being like Jesus was—but if they do, they need to go back to their Bibles, and take a closer look at Jesus.” — L.B., Phoenix
“I grew up Jewish in a Southern Baptist town, where I was constantly being told that I killed Christ, ate Christian babies, and was going to hell. So I learned early that many Christians have—or sure seem to have—no love in their hearts at all. It also seems so odd to me that Christians think that if I don’t accept their message my ears and heart are closed, because it seems to me like they have excessively closed ears and hearts to anyone else’s spiritual message and experience. They seem to have no sense of the many ways in which God reaches out to everyone. As far as I’ve ever known, Christians are narrow in their sense of God, fairly fascistic in their thinking, and extremely egotistical in thinking God only approves of them.”— B.P., Houston
“I wish Christians would resist their aggressive impulses to morph others into Christians. Didn’t Jesus preach that we should all love one another?”— M.G., Shoreline, WA
“I’m frequently approached by Christians of many denominations who ask whether I’ve accepted Christ as my savior. When I have the patience, I politely tell them that I’m Jewish. This only makes them more aggressive; they then treat me like some poor lost waif in need of their particular brand of salvation. They almost act like salespeople working on commission: If they can save my soul, then they’re one rung closer to heaven. It’s demeaning. I always remain polite, but encounters like these only show disrespect and sometimes outright intolerance for my beliefs and my culture. In Judaism, we do not seek to convert people. That is because we accept that there are many paths to God, and believe that no one religion can lay sole claim to the truth or to God’s favor. Each person is free to find his or her own way. To Christians I would say: Practice your religion as you wish. There is no need to try and influence others. If your religion is a true one, people will come to it on their own.”— M.S., Honolulu
“When did it become that being a Christian meant being an intolerant, hateful bigot? I grew up learning the positive message of Christ: Do well and treat others with respect, and your reward will be in heaven. Somehow, for a seemingly large group of Christians, that notion has gone lost: It has turned into the thunders and lights of the wrath of God, and into condemning everyone who disagrees with them to burning in the flames of hell. Somehow, present-day Christians forgot about turning the other cheek, abandoned the notion of treating others like they would like to be treated themselves; they’ve become bent on preaching, judging, and selfishly attempting to save the souls of others by condemning them. What happen to love? To tolerance? To respect?”—S.P., Nashville
“There are about a million things I’d like to say to Christians, but here’s the first few that come to mind: Please respect my right to be the person I’ve chosen to become. Worship, pray and praise your God all you want—but please leave me, and my laws, and my city, and my school alone. Stop trying to make me, or my children, worship your god. Why do we all have to be Christians? Respect my beliefs; I guarantee they’re every bit as strong as yours. Mostly, please respect my free will. Let me choose if I want to marry someone of my own sex. Let me choose if I want to have an abortion or not. Let me choose to go to hell if that’s where you believe I’m going. I can honestly say that I’d rather go to hell than live the hypocritical life I see so many Christians living.”— D.B., Seattle
“I had a friend who was, as they say, reborn. During my breaks from college she invited me to her church, and I did go a couple of times. In a matter of a month, at least ten people at her church told me that I was going to hell. The ironic thing is that I do believe in God; I’ve just never found a church where I felt at ease. However, in their eyes, I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved. I stopped going to that church (which in the past four years has grown from a small to a mega-church), but in time, through my friend, have seen some of these people again. None of them ever fails to treat me exactly as they did four years ago. All I can say is this: Constantly telling someone they’re going to hell is not a good way to convert them.”— A.S., Chicago
“I am a former ‘born again’ Christian. It’s been my personal experience that Christians treat the poor poorly—much like the Pharisees did in the parable of the old woman with the two coins. I found the church to be political to a fault, and its individual members all too happy to judge and look down on others. As a Christian, my own fervor to witness was beyond healthy. My friends would come to me to vent and express emotions, and all I would do is preach to them. I was of no real comfort to them. I never tried to see anything from their perspective.”— J.S.W, Philadelphia
“Once Christians know I’m gay, the conversion talk usually stops. Instead, I become this sympathetic character who apparently isn’t worthy of the gift of Christ. From my childhood in a Baptist church, I recall the ‘loathe the sin, love the sinner’ talk, but as an adult I can’t say I’ve often found Christians practicing that attitude. Deep down, I’m always relieved to avoid disturbing “conversion” conversations with Christians; discussing one’s most intimate thoughts and personal beliefs isn’t something I enjoy doing with random strangers. But at the same time, I feel as though Christians make a value judgment about my soul on the spot, simply because I am gay. I don’t pretend to know the worth of a soul, nor the coming gifts to those who convert the masses, but I would guess converting the sinful homosexuals would merit a few brownie points. But I get the feeling that most Christians don’t think we’re worth the hassle.”— R.M., Houston
“Religion always seemed too personal for me to take advice about it from people I don’t know.”— D.P., Denver
The above comments originally appeared in my book I’m OK–You’re Not: The Message We’re Sending Nonbelievers and Why We Should Stop, published in early 2007 by NavPress. (About five such comments appeared at the end of each of the book’s chapter, under the heading of “Ouch.”)
John,
Very depressing and unfortunately I can relate. As a Christian I often found a conflict between what I read in the Bible and studied with reality (Christian/religious practices) . For years I stopped going to church because I felt isolated and oppressed, saw otheres being isolated and oppressed and just couldn’t be a part of that. I then spent some time looking for a church were I was able to worship where I felt included. Its difficult. As a Christian, I want everyone I love to be in heaven and I want to get there, but I am absolutely not interested in making people feel bad about not being a Christian. I try my best to share the good news, but I know full well that I’m not perfect-no Christian is and its not good to pretend that we are.
John,
Bless you for being willing to start these dialogs and provide an avenue for people to talk and heal. I hope you know how important this is and I am so grateful to have found this blog.
We cannot force Jesus on anyone. Some people just do not want to hear it. And shoving Jesus down their throats just makes them angry, and they back off more. I work with many people who do not believe in God. They do not attend church either. They remember as a child be forced to go to church, and this turned them off to it totally.
Prayer is a powerful thing, and its just best at times to pray for a person and leave them in the Lords hands.
That was thoroughly depressing. It actually causes me physical pain to think of this being someone’s idea of Christians in general. The one thing that i try hardest to show people is that for me being a Christian is all about love and grace. Not about intolerance and judgment.
Wow
WM
John maybe to balance things out it would be encouraging to hear how former no-believers came to Christ because someone did witness to them and they were confronted with their sin nature. I’m on your mailing list and read new articles when you post them. I may be wrong but it appears to me that you have a tendency to blame your brothers and sisters in Christ for always turning non-believers off. Sure that may be the case many times but not always. Why focus on the negative all the time?
Sabina: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Way to … represent Christ, frankly.
Winey: Yeah, this stuff is just wounding. And the incredible thing is, I was expecting so much rage with these letters–but, instead, overwhelmingly, what I got was sadness and confusion. As I say in the book … well, this, exactly: “Where I expected mostly anger, I got instead a kind of pervasive, resigned bewilderment. If you boiled down to one thought the overall sentiment most often expressed in the nonbelievers’ collective statements, it’d be, ‘Why do Christians hate us so?’”
Awful.
Billy: Now, now: No fair. If you really do read my stuff on any kind of regular basis, you know that I hardly “focus on the negative all the time.” In fact, of my last 20 posts, exactly TWO could be in any way construed as “negative”–yesterday’s and today’s. Seems like a reasonable ratio, no?
I’m not sure they’re negative, either. I think that’s too easy an assesment. If you’re trying to do something right — like, say, not alienate non-believers — it seems to me that it’s just as positive to consider what isn’t working as it is to consider what is. More positive, really: What’s working, after all, doesn’t need attention.
So there is something that is working? Please share.
Well, one posting at a time, my friend. (And, honestly, I personally couldn’t tell any “See how trying to turn people who aren’t Christians into Christians works?” stories. I’m certainly not saying such stories don’t exist — of course I would never even suggest that. What I am absolutely saying is that I personally have never known anyone who was converted as a result of being evangelized to by a Christian — and I’ve never known anyone who has converted a non-believer by evangelizing to them. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I’ve never been told a story by anyone who knew of an occasion when a Christian converted a non-Christian. I’m sure such stories exist, of course. But I can definitely say I’ve never heard them. So I’m afraid someone else’ll have to tell that sort of story.)
John, what I’m saying is when it comes to evangelism or witnessing unless I missed something, (which I may have) the focus is always on how poorly Christians do that. The onus is always for Christians to be perfect in our witness/sharing and to be ever so sensitive to not offending others.
I read how missionaries are being persecuted every day. Physically beaten, homes burned down, churches destroyed all for reaching out and sharing the Gospel.
Read a few of these articles http://www.gfa.org/persecution or visit Voice of the Martyrs.
Today one of your brothers or sisters in Christ will give their life for witnessing. Part of the price they are willing to pay.
Offended or Martyered? Who again is suffering the greatest?
Billy: I’m sorry; you’ve confused the issue. I didn’t write anything about Christians in foreign nations being being martyered for practicing their religion or evangelizing. That’s horrible, of course. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with my post. Two … totally different subjects.
” I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved.”
Aren’t we all?
Dave, the Baptist. from Texas
Like Sabina said: “Very depressing”.
Seems ‘christians’ are damned if they do and damned if they don’t!
Maybe all christians should become hermits, so those who aren’t can continue in their…um…. whatever you want to call it, lifestyles. How sad that their cage has been rattled! Light has always disturbed Darkness. Right has always confronted Wrong. Justice has always confronted Injustice. Love has always confronted Hatred. Problem is, some who hate refuse to be loved. I echo both comments by Sabrina.
More power to you, John. Thanks for ‘being in touch with the times’! You have been gifted with a measure of wisdom for this time in Time.
Dave: Good point! Yes! True! Not sure what it has to do with this post, but … Great point!
Greta: Could you BE any kinder?
Good post, John. It’s very informative and helps us to realize that our actions affect how others see us Christians. One thing I’ve learned from studying theology is that non-Christians really notice our hypocrisies. LaVey pointed out the “Christians” he noticed that attended clubs or bars where he played piano and then the same gentlemen attended the same church on Sunday where he, again, played piano!
One thing both sides tend to forget is that we’re all human, none are perfect, and realizing that fact goes a long way. R.E.S.P.E.C.T…
Anyway, if one is living their life accordingly, others will notice. Be ever humble, patient, and faithful; God will take care of the rest.
I quoted A.S. from Chicagos’ entry about Non-Christians telling Christians what they think of them.
I, too, am dismayed that non-Christians see us as pushy, intolerant, and hypocritical. And I agree with Greta–no one is perfect, and the whole light/dark, love/hate, right/wrong analogies she made are great. My comment to any non-Christian is: I am not perfect, I am human! Get to know Jesus if you want to know what perfect is!
(Just finished reading “I’m OK You’re Not”. Excellent book. Thanks for that)
Cathy, all you can be concerned about is how they see you. If you accept that they “all” see “us” that way then that belief could keep you from witnessing. Is it better to offend six and save one than not share at all? Can a person who is already lost be more lost? One response from a Craigs list inquiry is not enough data for me to come to that conclusion. How am I to even know they were being honest in their responses?
Scripture however does say this. John 7:7 - The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
Billy: If the save-to-alienate ratio for domestically evangelizing Christians was anywhere NEAR six-to-one, you’d have a point. But it’s not even in that universe, and you know it. We ALL know it.
And it wasn’t “one response” from the Craigslist posting: It was well over 300 in less than four days. And why would they write with DISHONEST personal testimony? That’s … not reasonable.
And about your quote: GOD telling someone that they or the world is evil is one thing. A PERSON telling another person that they and/or the world is evil is a whooooooooole other can of repellent.
Brother John, first the response was to Cathy.
Six to One? No John I don’t know it, not sure how anyone can. It was an open question. I don’t know it, how can anyone?
Why are we to assume their response are all honest? Why would I assume they are reasonable? Like I said it is not enough info for me. If others want to buy into that is their business. I think you have faulty data. Just my opinion.
The world is dirt, people are what make it evil. We will have to agree to disagree.
This will be a good and needful book John if any find it depressing they have a problem. Winning people to Christ should be as Jesus said like catching fish. That is with wisdom, love, listening not pushing your ideas on them, not judging, not having to agree with them but being wise in your responses, showing you are interested in them and more importantly gaining their friendship, confidence and trust to leave the door open.
Hallelujah for Penlee. Honestly I haven’t gone through all the readings because I just popped in before I run off to a class. But I thank John for putting this particular topic out there because a lot of the ‘older’ Christians (not necessarily matured) do like to tell non believers how bad and evil they are…and sometimes even shun these people…not showing the love of Jesus Christ at all. I am not saying that we should get in the ‘miry clay’ with the non-believers, but at least remember when we/they (the old ones) were in the miry clay, what it was like to be looked upon by the Christians of our time…how we felt that we could never be made clean - but THANK GOD FOR THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. I love you John - and you don’t even know me.
God bless you all.
“” I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved.”
Aren’t we all? ”
…………………………………………..
Um…nope.
But hey, if it works for you, great!
John,
Those are some very interesting letters. As a non-believer, I think I’d like to add that it seems many Christians (not all) seem to go from the assumption that a non-believer has never heard of Christianity. Living in America, I think we can both see how silly that assumption is. Most non-believers were either Christians at one point or have experienced it through others and the culture, since 75% of the population is some sort of Christian.
This, in my eyes, is why most witnessing really fails. We’ve heard it and we’ve made our choice.
It’s almost like vacuum cleaner salesmen coming to your door. You’re happy to listen to the first one’s pitch and then send him on his way. You may even be fine with the next three or four who come to your door selling the same thing. But when you have to turn salesmen away every day it gets a bit frustrating, and you may blow up at one.
Unless you enjoy debating and driving salesmen crazy, like I do.
We don’t have to be hateful as Christians, but if respect means agreeing with them, we just can’t do it. Jesus loved everyone, but to those that rejected him, he clearly told they would not be let into the Kingdom. We have to act with love, respect, but also dignity. We should rejoice when we are rejected for knowing Jesus. I get rejected all the time, but I know that I’m doing what the Lord wants me to, and that the good news might not convert someone immediately, but that the Lord will work in their hearts with that seed, and maybe later, they will hear the message again and be touched. God will work with them when He desires. Sometimes people don’t want to hear the message, and they get offended because they’re uncomfortable. Sometimes they’re right, we might be too aggressive. Just look at Jesus and the way that he preached. Some loved, some hated, but he was always loving. Sometimes he angered. We must always speak with LOVE. That’s the whole point. But we should never agree with anything that is contrary to the message, no matter how offended people are that we think they are going to hell if they don’t accept Christ. After all, we were headed straight over there!
I really debated weighing in on this one… John, I can relate to all the comments the non-Chirstians sent you. It is what I experience from many Christians.
Luckily I know many decent Christains who actually practice love, tolerence, resepect and decency… or I would end up detesting the whole lot of Chirstians. John, you are a great example of one of the good Christians…
Take it from a non-Christian: tolerance and respect goes a long way. And that is something we are not shown by many Christians. Many of us non-believers are just as strong in our faiths as Christians are, and it doesn;t make us evil, full of darkness, etc.
For the Christians: how would you feel if someone was telling you that your religion is wrong or evil, that you are going to some form of hell, that things you belive are okay are sins, that someone is praying that you change your religion, and all the other things Christians use on non-believers? Would it make you likely to convert and give up your religion? Or would tend to annoy you?
I respect a lot abput Christianity and Jesus, it is many of his followers that I think are the problem.
After recovering from my crying fit that John didn’t post MY “Non-Christian Statement”, I did what any self-respecting egomaniacal model agnostic would do and dug it out of my e-mail. So here goes:
“As a non-believer educated in the Scripture, I would say I would have much more respect for most Christians if they lived and preached the Beatitudes of Matthew, rather than emphasizing the moralistic social dogma of St. Paul and the non-Gospel books of the New Testament. I also often wonder why Christians pay so much attention to Christ’s death and (alleged) resurrection, rather than to the liberating lessons of his life and teachings. I also find that most Christians who try to evangelize don’t have the knowledge of the Scripture they should, which leaves them unprepared to answer the tough questions about their religion.”
“” I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved.”
Aren’t we all? ”
…………………………………………..
Um…nope.
But hey, if it works for you, great!
_________________________________
This is what I’m talking about. If they’ve heard the message, and they just don’t want to hear, if they don’t want to accept that there’s only one true God and that he has a son…
we have to love them anyway. And we have to accept that they’re rejecting Jesus as their savior. But as Christians, we simply can’t accept that “all paths lead to God”, or that “there is no God”. Sorry. And that’s what some people don’t like. That evangelizing is part of what we believe. That we think Jesus is the only true way. We just have to do what we have to do, which is evangelize (with love and respect), and when they reject the message, respect their decision, and move on…don’t get hung up over not “converting”. God converts, not us. But we can’t assume that everyone’s heard it. Some people are very uneducated about what us Christians believe.
Folks: Mr. Shields, a well-known television producer in the San Francisco Bay Area, was, I believe, the very first person to respond to my Craigslist posting; since then we’ve become something of e-pals. He runs the fabulous weblog, “Today’s Cool News,” which you can link to under “Links” in the column to the right.
Brian! Did your comment here make it into the book? I believe very much it did, but can’t be positive. I don’t see why not; it’s wonderful. Anyway, for the ones I put here, I simply went in order of the way they appear in the book–so perhaps yours in in one of the latter “Ouch” groups, if that makes sense. Anyway, yes. Good points here.
For an agnostic, you’re not a bad guy.
Holy cow! There’s been a lot of comments here. They’ve been so good, too: so rich, and obviously heartfelt. I wish I had time just now to comment on them all, because I really do so APPRECIATE them all.
Brian: I DO have awesome readers, no?
If someone else’s religion said I was going to hell and felt bad for me…
I wouldn’ t think a thing of it. Jewish and Muslim religions already do think that of me. I don’t hate them, I don’t feel sorry for them. I just believe what I believe in, not what they do. I can accept them as people, and get along with them, but I can’t accept what they believe. And I understand that that’s what some nonbelievers want to get across. Our religion says we have to speak, and that’s what we do. We don’t know if you already have rejected Christianity. We have to accept that you don’t believe it, but you have to accept we can’t not say it. Now that’s tolerance. We can’ t just be separate, I hope you agree with me on this. You already don’t believe, and I can’t convince you, and you can’t convince me. I know the thing people hate about us is our evangelism. We can’t change that one thing, but we can change the reason of our evangelism back to Jesus and his love.
I’m reminded of a co-worker I knew several years ago. We were talking briefly and somehow we happened across the subject of church. She said something like, “I need to start going to church, or I’ll be in trouble, won’t I?” We had to cut it short there for some reason, but I wanted to tell her that we’re all in trouble, we’re all in the same boat, but Jesus came so we could be saved.
A few things God wants us to hear:
(non-believers take note:)
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:3)
“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14.6)
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)
(judgmental believers take note:)
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:1-5)
(hypocritical believers take note:)
“…you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? As it is written: ‘God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.’” (Romans 2:21-24)
(overbearing believers take note:)
“If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.” (Matthew 10:14)
John, thought-provoking as always. Comments, too. I will soberly meditate on the love of GOD in Y’shua to see how I should behave in word and deed to others, those who do believe in the Word and those who don’t. It isn’t an either-or, this matter of loving others by telling them about the Way, the Truth, and the Life … and loving them by helping them along the way of life, listening to them when they express what they do or don’t think or understand about truth, and living the Life as we live life alongside them, interacting with them as caring people, getting involved with their concerns to the degree they invite us to. The container our light can so easily be hid in comes in two sizes: silence when words are wanted and words when silence is wanted. I only pray that I will be more sensitive to others and sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Not either-or … both. I have failed most miserably when I’ve cared most heart-wrenchingly.
Thanks once again, John, for giving us all much to think about and a place to discuss these things. –kathleen
It’s pretty simple, isn’t it? When Jesus (as well as some others) say “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” why do so many assume that he isn’t applying this rule of life to our evangelism as well? Yet how many time have I heard that to be zealous, rude and dogmatic with those who do not believe is exactly what we would want if we were in their shoes? After all, the stakes are so high.
But it ain’t so. We all crave respect and when people listen to us we tend to listen to them as well. I’ll take a gamble here; no one comes to Christ through intimidation and ridicule. Those aren’t his tactics, they’re the other guy’s.
you know I love ya John but Billy does have a point…have you ever put the question to those who have been converted?
Billy made the correlation between six offended and one saved, do you not think that you might get 50 stories (in four days) of non-believers coming to Christ as a direct result of some one sharing the gospel (good news) with them?
Many times the minute I tell someone I believe in salvation through Christ (I have not addressed myself as a ‘christian’ in over a decade because of the immediate dislike non-christians have displayed) the whole tone of any conversation we may have had changes. Is this because of their preconceived notions of christians in general or is it really as Christ said,”people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.’
Now to address your statement, “It was well over 300 in less than four days. And why would they write with DISHONEST personal testimony?” God said “ALL mens (mankinds) hearts are excedingly wicked” . Do I personally think all 300 are false testimonies, no. I do think there are voices that need to be heard from the other side though…(just to let you know I came to believe because someone had the guts to tell it like it is and lovingly pointed me to Gods laws - The Ten Commandments - which revealed my sin toward God and my desperate need for a saviour)
Before I came to believe I too was filled with disdain for those who thought they were so godly and holy, after all I wasn’t a bad person. And I knew there was a God and I’d get to Him when I was good and ready to give up all the fun I was having. It was my body so I could get high if I wanted. Abortion? MY body! I was an HONOR student, studying for my PhD. I helped out at the SOUP kitchens and FOOD pantries. I was a GOOD person.
But nobody had the guts to tell me all my works and all my protests about being so g–damned good would mean absolutely nothing once I came face to face with my creator.
Should we risk offending six to help that one back home…Christ says we should leave NINTY-NINE behind to guide that ‘one’ back home….
My ‘friend’ (who at the time I certainly didn’t view as a friend) told me something that shut my mouth against all my rationalizations against Christ. He said, “You know when I look at someone who doesn’t know the truth of Christ, I see a human being trapped in the only room not consumed within a burning building. Sure, trying to expain in a loving, non-judgmental way that he’s gonna burn to death would be lovely but grabbing him by his shirt collars and throwing him out the window to the waiting firefighters below is what’s gonna save his life.”
I stick to my earlier post where I stated that once I’ve told the good news (all mankind sins against God when we break His laws.The punishment for sin is eternal DEATH. He is an Almighty loving God who, because we are part of His family, will do anything to save us…even to become the perfect sacrifice for us all) after that short, direct witness I tell them, “Go read the book - it’s all in there.” Does it offend people? H-ll yes, am I to worry about it? No. Do I continue to force feed them doctrine? No…I pray for them and continue to prepare myself should they come back for seconds.
p.s. This is one thing I need to get off my chest …and it’s directed towards Christians primarily. Stop picking and chosing which commandments are ok to break and which ones you can use against your fellow man.
Homosexual sex and pre-marital sex are the exact same thing - sins against God. Just like loving money is, just like hate is, just like lying is, just like forgeting the sabbath is, just like looking at your neighbors wife/car/dog and thinking “I wish I had one like that” is….to break any commandment is to break them all. Breaking a commandment is sin. Sin is death.”
“Homosexual sex and pre-marital sex are the exact same thing - sins against God. Just like loving money is, just like hate is, just like lying is, just like forgeting the sabbath is, just like looking at your neighbors wife/car/dog and thinking “I wish I had one like that” is….to break any commandment is to break them all. Breaking a commandment is sin. Sin is death.”
The above may be part of the reason why the largest growing religious group in the country is the non-religious.
maybe what we Christians need to remind ourselves is that we were once sinners too. then maybe that way we will get off our high horse of ‘holiness’. the conviction of sin should be the Holy Spirit’s job, not ours; we are only interfering with and frustrating God’s redemptive purposes if we do not do what we are supposed to do: exemplify God’s love. when the prodigal son returned to his father his dad didn’t go about telling him that he deserved to die because he ran away or that he should have been disowned. his dad threw a feast for him. hugged him even though he stank like pigs and ate what was offered to the ‘unclean’ animals, making him worse than unclean. his dad continued to love him tenderly before he returned - before he repented. shouldn’t we, too, love our neighbours in such a way that we do not condemn what they do but tenderly exemplify God’s love even before they repent? the principle is this: converts don’t need an extra dose of guilt and shame; when the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin, they are full of it. what they need is the demonstration of God’s love and mercy.
Philip. =]
that being said. when it is necessary. confront the sinner in love and truth. without either, it is not God’s way.
Philip. =]
Breezy–who on earth would “come back for seconds?” Bless your heart. Jesus’ good news was a message of love. He didn’t need to convert people to believing they were sinners before he met their real and specific needs–met them right where they were, in sin or out of it.
Breezy, the Bible says people need to hear the law first and then the grace; otherwise, they feel no need for the grace. Thanks for sharing that aspect of this discussion. Yes, the motive and delivery are of paramount importance, but we all need to get past our feelings for or against this-that-or-theother and get our heads and hearts in the Book and see what God/Jesus say and show is Love. Also, your P.S., Breezy was so right-on. I’m grateful to John for pointing out, through these e-mails he’s reprinted here, how very important it is to examine our motive and delivery. That doesn’t negate motive and delivery. May we all be instructed by the Lord and His Word. In His love–kathleen
This is a good discussion - I think I might weigh in more later but…
Kayong, about the law needing to come first…
You do see that model being used by Christ with the rich young ruler.
The ruler asked what he could do inherit eternal life, and Christ, (amazingly, saying nothing about grace, His impending death on the cross, or the sinner’s prayer) tells him to keep the commandments
The ruler pressess the matter, and Christ zeroes in on the commandment the guy is NOT keeping (Have no other gods before Me. The ruler loved his money more than God and wasn’t willing to part with it)
So in that case, Christ starts with the law and conviction of sin. And for some people, this is the best place to start
But note Christ’s actions in John 4 while talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. Christ first
1.) Asks for help
This does an amazing job of breaking down the wall of prejudice.
Non-believers think believers think they are better than them. Samaritans thought the Jews thought that they were better than them.
Christ, knowing this woman would feel judged by people in His ethnic group, first shows her that He does not consider Himself too high and lofty above her to ask for her help.
A little humility goes along way.
2.) Next, Jesus shows her that He has something she needs (Living water)
3.) After she has shown interest and evidence that the Holy Spirit is working on her heart - then and only then, does Jesus start in on her about the five husbands (AKA, the law, conviction of sin.)
I think it is very instructive to look at how Christ dealt with people coming from differant backgrounds. At the very least it shows us that we should not rely on a one-size-fits all approach to witnessing.
Whether you are a person who tends to go right up and confront people with their spiritual state, or someone who is very uncomfortable making such confrontaions, God may ask you to break away from your “formula” for a specific person
There is no subsitute for asking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit on reaching non-believers.
Hello, John. First, your book topic is worthy not only of a premier publisher of religious titles, but also of any academic press interested in publishing worthy titles in Sociology of Religion.
Second, I trust you realize that from the standpoint not of Sociology but rather of Anthropology, several of the interviews excerpted here represent superannuated adolescence, in the context of this country’s uniquely and increasingly intense and protracted coming-of-age process. (As many ethnologists since Mead have shown, not all cultures “do” adolescence, and nobody but nobody does it like we Yanks do.)
Finally, in your research for and composition of this work, did you ever get the creepy feeling that what these non-believers are reacting to (or against) are manifestations of something other than Christianity, by professed Christians? I reckon I mean this in a Kierkegaardian sense; that all of your work on this subject may amount to the detection of a vast, complex and, frankly, diabolical set of categorical errors evengelized by dark proselytes unawares. Principalities of the air, and all that.
I’d point to, for example, the strong evidence here that these non-believers are reacting in almost every case to persons who actually have no idea what Christianity is and is not and who therefore tend to mistake it for, e.g. bits and pieces of fitfully received incantations or even just vaguely religious-sounding words without any real Christian referent or meaning.
Call me Father Tireseus, but I get the strong feeling that these non-believers were meant by a certain power to react with precisely the revulsion they evince. That’s why I used the word “creepy”.
Pax Christi,
Hugo
Sigh…
Some of the comments on this post make me feel there is hope, and others make me very sad and realize that many Christians simply will not respect or show tolerance for those who are non-Christians.
BTW PJ, I think tolernace is a little on-sided if you think it covers Christians constantly brow-beating the non-believers.
John, I will say again that you are one Christian I really respect, and I think your really show and live your faith through your actions. I thank you for that… and for accepting those of that are not -Christaians and trying to start a dialog that respects both sides. I wish more were like you.
The 300 responders to your Craigslist posting sound as if they might be sharing essentially the same frustration: talking the talk is not the same as walking the walk.
Sadly, that is not an inconsistency limited to Christianity or Christians.
But as I recall, Christ’s message, and ultimately His gift to us, is based on the idea that since we are human, we will sometimes fail. Failing, in fact, is a defining characteristic of a Christian — an acknowledgment that perfection and salvation can only come through Him.
John, I do no mean to monlopolize your comments but I feel the need to respond to Cheryl.
Cheryl… the frustration is not primarily the “talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk”. Yes, the hypocrasy of some Vhristians does affect ones general over-view… but it really isn’t the key frustration.
What is most frustrating is the lack of respect and tolerance. I respect your beliefs… why can’t you respect mine? Why must you, once you know I am secure in my beliefs and do know of Christianity, try to keep changing them? Would you really appreciate it if the shoe was on the other foot?
Yes, I get one of the tennents is to spread the word… but many of us have already heard the word and decided otherwise. Respect that! It is not somehow that you failed in conveying it to us, that we are just evil or in the dark, that we are somehow unenlightened. Accept we heard, we understand, and just believe otherwise.
When I first became a Christian many years ago, I practically attacked people with the Gospel! I was a mighty church worker…there all of the time. It took me falling a terrible fall to see how much I needed to depend on Christ. I quit being a mighty worker…always there, and always feeling guilty when I was not. It also made me see just how forceful I had been in some of my approaches to others. I truly know in my heart that Jesus Is The Way, The truth, And The Life…The only Way. I also realize that Jesus Himself said to be ready to give a response…if asked. People will follow an example more than a thousand mighty words. I, too, stayed out of church for years because I got so sick of the ‘church game!’ All of the gimmicks certainly make me ill! Where is the simplicity of loving our neighbor as ourselves? It seems that people that are not Christians are much more willing to be friends than people in the church. Everybody seems too busy trying to be a super saint to get down in the nitty gritty dirt of the true needs of others. We finally found a place where we started going and have yet again gotten involved with the worship group…and there are already those putting everything under the magnifying glass. This should not be! I realize we are all just human…and apt to fail. But how are we ever to be an example!! If the believers cannot ever get along with each other, then how are we to help or be an example to anyone else? Like the Word states: Get the board out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from someone else’s! Let us all examine ourselves first!
Great Blog. None of this surprises me. I realize that there are some unbelievers that are trying to find any excuse to ‘not believe.’ I have known a couple. Then there are some that have truly been damaged and chased away. How sad. To everyone that reads this that is a non-christian. I aplogize if I have ever failed in front of you. Unfortunately, I struggle to grow in Christ. It is not easy. The world gets worse by the second. I get made fun of. People call us brainwashed and weak. I have two natures that war against each other. Hey, when I was living against God…nothing ever bothered me. You know, live and let live! But I will tell you this: I would not trade the night that He forgave me for all of the riches, money, sex, or possessions in this world. I am a rebel at heart…rejected by my earthly father. He still forgave me!
Keep writing these awesome blogs!
Brilliant. I keep coming to your blogs John! I’m addicted and am always eager to “dip my toes in your pond.” So, here’s my two cents:
I grew up Moravian, was baptised when I was a baby…became what many would call an agnostic in high school, and returned to religion with a new zest after taking several religion courses at St.Louis University. Understanding different religions, in my opinion, gives the learner a much-needed perspective on human nature, culture, history,… the whole enchilada. It’s not just a recommendation,… I feel this is essential, especially to Christians. Christians can love people the way Jesus intended by understanding exactly whom your “neighbors” are!
Second Michele, thank you for the remarks about NO FORMULAS. Amen. I appreciate the reminder–needed it.
–kathleen
thanks for this john.
post-modernism is truly alive and well in our world today…
this might last for the next 500 years, who knows.. so might as well leave behind our modern ways of doing ministry…
lets engage the culture so we can fullfill the the GC effectively.
Hm, can’t remember subscribing to your email, but thanks anyway.
Nice blog, and really good statements of non-christians this time.
For me the problem starts when people think they’re better than others just because of their religion, because ..well, they aren’t. I would tell them that anybody who thinks he has to do something for an ‘afterlife’ is just plain stupid. They should look up ‘end’ or ‘death’ in the dictionary or just think about it. We have to life in here and now and make the best out of it. That is important.
..but I don’t tell them, cause I’m friendly and everybody should be able to live by their own beliefs. And that’s my agnostic-thinking difference.
Regards.
John~
Great post, although I wouldn’t say I ‘enjoy’ it–this kind of thing reminds me of Merold Westphal’s suggestion that Christians read things like this for Lent, so that the deep failings of the church drive us back to our only hope, in Jesus who never failed. I have 2 comments:
1) I think the state of affairs in the US — covered in a Christianity about 3000 miles across and about an inch deep — is such a big part of the dynamic we’re talking about here. Just about everybody ‘out there’, it seems, has heard it all before, didn’t buy it, and wants to stop being harassed. I totally sympathize; if I had the bulk of what was passing for ‘the faith once for all delivered to the saints’ these days foisted on me, I would be repelled also. And this is nothing new, of course; some of the staunchest and most thoughtful opponents Christianity has ever seen have been those who came up against exactly the kind of ephemeral moralism that hangs thick in the air in and around so many churches, like LA smog.
Having recently moved from California to Scotland for PhD studies, I can say that some (not all!) of this is different, for a variety of reasons, one of them being so few professing Christians.
2) Along these lines, it seems the church so often never actually gets around to the GOSPEL–whether in the pulpit and pews or out. If the gospel is ‘the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes’, and if the gospel is an announcement of something we’ve never heard before, something that God has done through Jesus Christ (instead of simply a lifestyle of trying to be like Jesus), then the message and the method must follow suit. A huge part of the reason why non-Christians have ‘heard it all before’ is that many have never really heard the gospel before, because it’s the only thing that’s NEW–it’s the only thing that’s different from everything else we know and assume and feel.
The gospel comes to us taking away all hope in ourselves and offering all hope in Jesus, who died the death we deserve to die and lived the life we should have lived, gaining all our standing before God, accomplishing all on our behalf–a reality freely offered to those who look outside and apart from ourselves and trust in Jesus alone (which is what ‘faith’ means). THIS is foolishness to the world, precisely because it’s nothing like anything we know and believe in and of ourselves. But it’s also the wisdom of God.
Because this is the gospel, Christians should never come across as self-righteous (because Jesus is all our righteousness) or hypocritical (because in and of ourselves we’re EXACTLY like everyone else) or proud (because we have received the gospel and everything good we have as a gift, not as a paycheck). This isn’t directed at ‘bad’ Christians out there; it’s for me too–if we believe the gospel, we have to believe that we have nothing of ours to appeal to before God or before the world, except Jesus on our behalf.
That’s why the Bible calls the church ’saints’ and ‘righteous’ and ‘holy’, because we have Jesus, the only holy and righteous one–or rather, Jesus has us. We all as Christians have to say with the apostle Paul, ‘Not I, but the grace of God that is with me.’ And isn’t this, then, how we should approach our fellow human beings with the gospel? In our weakness and Christ’s strength?
~B
I’m still a Christian as it were, although my choice is to follow Jesus’ teachings and the Bible without bending knee to the institutions of Men that often cause more problems than they solve. This is why I’m no longer a “Catholic” so to speak, and more of a man of my own religion.
I often try to see things the way a non-Christian sees them, and I do see the point of this book. The problem is not when Christians treat other people well - when Christians act like good Christians, why criticize them? Brian seems bent on saying that we need to focus on both sides, but that’s not the purpose of the book. The purpose of the book is to look at the reasons why some non-Christians have legitimate issues with Christians. And the issue is that a lot of Christians tend to be over-zealous, less-than-pious, and self-righteous to the point of being even too much for other Christians! There are plenty of responses in these comments that prove that to be too true.
That is the issue. And that’s something a book should be written about. Something that makes us - the imperfect mortals - re-evaluate our approach and think about the Faith. To assume we are too good for doing such is self-important and misleading. It does not hurt to revisit our convictions internally. It does not hurt to listen to the criticism, and see if we ourselves are at fault.
If we’re not at fault, then we should take measures to be sure we’re never those zealots and indignant worshippers who drive away others. We should take comfort that we are doing our best and proceed to do good in the Creator’s name.
John,
I think that your post is a brave and interesting step in the right direction.
I fear though that a change of attitude against the members of the “other” group is not enough to resolve the overall conflict.
As long as we define and classify ourselves and others primarily according to our religious beliefs or non-beliefs there will be a potential of conflict. What we need to do is to establish humanism as the right measure for ethics. It should be secondary if we believe or not in this or that goddess or prophet or whatever. This is of course more difficult for Christians (or Muslims or Jews) who are trained to think that their moral standards are God given hence supperior.
I don’t see what is so depressing about this article. I know there are many so-called Christians who are self-righteous and hatetul, but that’s to be expected if you read your Bible. Jesus said many would cast out demons and prophesy in His name and He would tell them that He never knew them. Jesus also told us that many would be called but few would be chosen. That tells me that we should expect to see alot of self-described Christians behaving like heathens.
As far as the opinions of non-Christians, most of the opinions in this article are just personal perceptions that seem to me to be influenced by the world -Satan-more so than ‘bad’ Christians. Don’t get me wrong…I know there are those who have had really bad experiences with the church…but most of the comments I read sound like people who have a very limited understanding of Christianity with little or no desire to learn more. The things they complain about most are the things that Christianity is most about….Jesus Himself said that He alone was the way, the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father but by Him. This is construed as egotistical and narrow minded by non Christians, even though we didn’t come up with it….Jesus did. Jesus was also anything but tolerant. Apparently people think that love and tolerance of intolerable behavior are the same thing. Non-Christians don’t like being called sinners? Well….what are we supposed to tell them? That is what we believe…..that *everyone* is a sinner but God loves us anyway. They seem to really like Jesus and most of His message….all except for the *dying for our sins* part.
I was born and raised in a Christian family, turned away from the church for a long time and recently came back for good. I find it interesting that so many people have had such bad experiences with Christians, because it has been *my* experience that *most * of the Christians I have known were good, kind and loving people.
I also experienced a time when church made me feel uncomfortable, until I realized that the discomfort was coming from within and not from the people in the church. When I owned up to my sins and confessed them to God I was changed forever. Some folks sadly just don’t want to hear that.
John
Thank You for bringing these feelings to light!! What shot of reality. Bottomline is we need to see this world for what it is.. Fallen!!! We need to just Love . God give us an awesome gift in the freedom of choice. All we are to do is share the Good News and he will do the rest. People will live as they wish and we can’t force anything.
We have a ” Church ” group coming to our hometown to protest the FUNERAL of a young man killed in Iraq, I thought this is a great way to witness to the Lost. But it is what it is . God will use this for His Glory.
Good stuff!! When we think WE have it all figured, God has a way of remindung us we don’t.
Keep doing what you’re doing. Truly a blessing for us all.
B
To SecondMichele (I hope you don’t mind, John, if I reply once again to her reply to my comment on your blog–smileyface): At 2a.m. my mind was a little sluggish, and so my response to your response to my comment wasn’t complete. Even though, yes, no formulas, the turning point in Jesus’ conversation with the woman at the well was when he let her know that he knew about her immoral past and present (5 husbands and the one you are now living with isn’t your husband). She wasn’t just excited to find a fortune-teller; she knew she had found the Messiah. The great thing is that He didn’t condemn her (tho being GOD, He had the right and the power); instead, he offered her the living water so she would never thirst again. The only “formula” we need is the Gospel, which doesn’t begin with Matthew; it begins in the Torah. GOD’s holy standards show man’s inability to meet them and need for sacrifice provided by GOD. This was and is the pattern. Those of us who believe, first recognize who and what we are in the sight of a holy GOD, then we recognize the sacrifice He has provided and our need of it, then we can enjoy relationship with Him. But you’re still absolutely right, SecondMichele. The presentation of this good news is not formulaic. It’s as personal and filled with love and consideration as the GOD Who commands then sacrifices Himself to fulfill those commands so we can live in love with Him forevermore.
And I gotta say, amen and amen to Creedorchaos.
Way to go, John! I’ve never seen blog comments exceed 50!!
John,
about your comment: “GOD telling someone that they or the world is evil is one thing. A PERSON telling another person that they and/or the world is evil is a whooooooooole other can of repellent”
AMEN.
The WWJD mindset is so often misused. I have to remind myself that Jesus could SAY exactly what the person needed to hear because HE (Jesus) could see directly into that person’s heart. We humans do not (thank God) have that vantage point. When we attempt to do or say many of the things that Jesus or God did or said (e.g., “you brood of vipers”) we do so by means of enormous judgment based on, often extremely limited, observations of their external behavior. And this is a sin all of us Christians are guilty of.
We need to stop trying the remove the sins of the world. We are not qualified for that job … and besides that, It is finished.
tam,
I appreciated your comments. As they came directly following mine, I’m not sure whether you were counting me among the intollerant. In any event I’d like you and John to know that I have been in almost daily dialogue for a long time with non-believers—specifically, with activist atheists—who are seeking greater freedom of expression of their convictions, a project I wholeheartedly support. I’ve always found ecumenism far more difficult and disingenuous than my conversations with non-believers. There’s a strong theodical element, though, to John’s project. I’m not a mystic; nonetheless, I can feel it. My guess is that he may too, though I’d be surprised were he comfortable with my terminology.
[...] people who do that, or people who are dying. And my age bracket and I are invincible. But I found this and had to make a post about my Church [...]
Ric, ok, how about this, a believer tells an unbeliever that God says “The world and the people in it are evil?”
I spoke to a friend this morning and asked him how he came to Christ. He said his sister-in-law would always get on his case about how he was living. He use to get mad at her, but she persisted. Eventually he came to Christ and now is in full time ministry. He now says he is glad she did. He said what was making him mad was he was being convicted of his sin nature.
People get over being offended, they never get over being lost.
Hugh: Real quick. I’ve heard your argument … well, for at least a year now, from innumerable people. The argument (sp??) is that people who reject Christianity aren’t, in fact, rejecting Christianity, but rather the INFERIOR, errant version of Christianity communicated to them via the evangelizing efforts of Christians who basically don’t know what they’re doing or saying. I’m FOREVER being told that people who REALLY know how to evangelize, who REALLY understand Christianity, who REALLY have the Holy Spirit within them, are GREAT at evangelizing, and should really be the only ones out there doing that.
Real Christianity, goes this argument, is forever suffering at the hands of what amounts to inferior Christians promoting a weak, bastardized version Christianity.
If you’d like to see my full response to this arguement, I’m afraid I’ll have to refer you to this terribly long (but at least truly comprehensive) interview with me: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/cms_content?page=608205&event=ESRCN We discuss this at right about the middle of the interview
The short version of my answer to the case you and others have made about this is this: Take the loser, errant, unhelpful, unenlightened Christian evangelizer. Now take the fully enlightened, Spirit-based, fully-informed, fully articulate Christian evangelizer.
Now. Find the difference in what they would actually SAY. My contention–which no one has yet to even almost disprove–is that they’d say the exact same things. They’d talk about the same things. They’d point to the same evidences. They’d use the same arguments. They’d quote from the same Bible. They’d use THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE. Salvation. Hope. Sacrifice. Redemption. Heaven.
Same, same, same. As it must be. A Nobel prize winning author and a schmoe off the street are going to tell the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears in pretty much the exact same way. Cuz there’s only ONE story there.
Your argument that people who reject Christianity only do so because they haven’t been exposed to the RIGHT Christianity is (besides being functionally, practically impotent, since you can’t DO anything about all these loser evangelizing Christians out there blowing it for the rest of you wise, true Christians) founded upon a spiritual and intellectual elitism that, on the ground–in actual, spoken practice–has no more difference between it and what it looks down upon than a finch does from a wren.
All ANYONE being told they need to become a Christian is going to hear is that they’re wrong. You tell someone they’re wrong, and you just alienated that person from you. Which means you’ve then broken Christ’s Great Commandment with that person, since it’s impossible to love someone with whom you have no relationship at all. Thus the contention of my book: In too zealously persuing the Great Commission, we neccessarily fail at the Great Commandment.
i think christians would convert more people if everybody wasnt trying to be a preacher. after all preaching is a calling to which most of us are not called to. Our job is not to tell people how bad they are but how good the word of god is and its upto the individual to choose which path to take. Conviction is a very personal thing and when we are forceful about getting people born again they miss the point or rebel against christianity not because they dont believe but because they feel it is being impossed. I am a christian myself and i must say after reading those comments I could see that we do behave in a self righteous holier than though manner alot of the time and its not right. we should take the time to listen and hear the other parties views etc and when given the chance tell them ours and let them see it God’s way not our way.
I’m sorry, John, but that happens not to be my argument. I’m quite familiar with that one too, and look forward pretty eagerly to looking into how you’ve dealt with it, as I’m sure you’ve done so better than I have done. What I mean is really a theodical question: what role Satan in all this? A bit more specifically, what role, if any, via the professed Christians? (Please understand that “it’s against my religion” to judge who’s an ontological Christian and who isn’t; I’m basically a Kierkegaardian, so I can say only that I pray that I am a Christian.) Perhaps it would help if I explained that I believe that Christianity lasted about 30 seconds, and that after that, sacrificial (false) religion crept back in. So, the most extreme of distinctions between the two cities, the two churches.
I did a post a few months ago entitled “The Paradox of a Fundamentalist Liberal” which explored this very topic. We as Christians have to embrace the gentleman in the Lord. He would never force himself upon us and it is not in his will that we force him on others
Ephesians 4:11-12
11: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers; 12: for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Any action for Christ without seeking God first and asking for His guidance will probably fail. If evangelism is your gift, and you want to be effective then you must, above all else, pray first before you share or witness to others. Some people confront others with the Gospel, some are relational, different tools for different jobs. Main point being if you ask Christ for His guidance and ask Him to use where you are and with what you know, He will.
If we spent as much time praying as we do arguing, we could be more effective in our witness. Myself included.
John,
I can’t believe all the responses to this topic. I guess we do a pretty lousy job, as Christians, remembering to be humble in our approach to the Great Commission and the two greatest commandments. We come off like the gong in First Corinthians Thirteen. For it is all about people and love. I believe a well placed word, a hug, being an example and not pretenting that the “Christian” life and those of us who subscribe to it are always right, always patient or always anything.
In a recent survey Christians listed knowledge and practice about love as the most important Christian virtues. How can that be?
I’m new to word press, but I like what I see so far. Keep up the great work.
Dan
Billy,
Concerning your 1st point, what if someone said God says, “…”
It has been my experience that everyone has been introduced to the God of wrath and judgment. It is the God of mercy and love most are unfamiliar with. This is true within and without the Church. Barna’s surveys serve to illuminate this issue quite well.
To your second point, the example of a man who is thankful for his sister-in-law’s tenacity. The key words in that description are “his sister-in-law would always..” I suspect an authentic relationship of love and heart-felt concern was behind this sister-in-law’s words and actions. The time she committed (”always” implies they saw each other several times over a long period of time) illustrates / reveals a love that he, no doubt, had not seen before.
Someone can be the bible/Jesus in someone’s life but never in someone’s face.
The bottom line is that God doesn’t need us to convince anyone to be a Christian. God will reconcile His people to Him. We as Christians need to do what we are specifically directed according to what we believe is our guide (the Bible) and that is to love one another-if we forgave each other-truely and loved one another truely, this world would be so much better. Our behavior as Christians can either be a beacon for folks or a deterent-each Christian has to decide if they will show Gods grace, mercy and love through thier actions or not.
Thanks, Dan. And Amen, Sabrina.
Another point about why the “My Sister In-Law Helped Convert Me” story fails to support the argument that evangelizing to nonbelievers is good is because the kind of evangelizing we’re talking about here–the kind nonbelievers undestandably have so little tolerence for–is COLD CALL evangelizing, the kind where someone you don’t or barely know starts telling you what you should believe. That’s not anywhere near the kind of relationship this guy obviously had with his sister-in-law, who was a constant, long-standing figure in his life. INTIMATES discussing faith with you is one thing. A stranger telling you you’re wrong for whatever you believe in is certainly another.
I thought the issue was not to offend anyone, because my friend’s sister-in-law was did offend my friend initially. He got over it. But now I understand that it maybe ok to offend someone you know, a relative? As far as cold calling analogy. I’ve never know anyone, and I work with missionaries, who ever considers “telling someone” what they should believe. That is not sharing the Gospel. I don’t personally believe there is a magic formula for evangelism. Sometimes strangers receive the Gospel from strangers, sometimes friends ignore it from friends. How are any of us to know in advance if the person you witness to has a friend who has been praying for someone to witness to them, and your are that someone?
What determines a stranger? Does it take a face to face to relationship or can that be established, in like a blog? Am I a friend?
My God in Heaven, what a stunningly fab question, Billy. What does determine a stranger? Who is the ontological Stranger? Who the Friend? Who the Enemy? Who the Outsider? The Bible treats all of these, throughout, but I never thought to frame it so straightforwardly as you do. Wow.
You can’t tell the difference between a friend of yours, and someone you’ve never met before?
Wow indeed.
hughvic,
Brother I have a lot more questions than answers. This I do know, God says His Ways are not our ways. For that I am grateful.
John, where did I say that? I asked what determines a stranger because you said the following, and I quote, to a woman who asked why Jesus. Somewhere here on your blog.
“You’re born human. That means you’re extremely inclined to be selfish, greedy, snarky, gossipy, lazy, impatient, mean-spirited, ego-driven, etc., etc. You’re just born to … self-promote, shall we say. It’s not all you’re born to be: you’re also born to be virtuous and kind and loving and so on.”
I’m asking if she was a stranger because if she was you “seem” to be breaking your rules on evangelism. Never offend a stranger.
I’m at a point where I can recognize the difference between someone I know and some I don’t. It was a challenge. (tongue in cheek)
I guess I have one more thought about this. If hell is the absence of God, and it is, for all eternity, why wouldn’t we use the most charm filled approach possible to get people engaged in the debate. The debate about their souls.
Because God selects us, not the other way around. So all we’re trying to do is present thoughts and ideas, or life style examples, so someone is curious about Christianity.
A church can attract people many ways. Saddleback and Willow Creek have a certain appeal as does Saint Patrick’s Catholic Church in downtown Chicago. But every church has something in common. They all must attract the curious and then give them a reason to return again. Failing that, stagnation sets in and people never have a chance to hear about the Good News. Even those who are born in the faith, as we Catholics like to say, still need a reason to return.
Whether in word, deed or the 90 minutes spent at worship on Sunday, people look for a reason to belong. If we’re smart, we give them that reason. As they grow in faith and knowledge, they realize, as we do, that love asks how not why. Love is a patient, thoughtful approach, not strident or rude.
Dan
Billy–I was answering Hugh; I knew my comment would go directly beneath his. But you ask, “What determines a stranger?”
Um. Well, a stranger is someone you’ve never met before. See? Easy. (And PLEASE let’s drop this now. It’s just too … stupid, basically. You understand, I’m sure. Resist commenting for awhile, if you’d be so kind?)
It’s convicting… but also encouraging because a lot of it is true. Lord, and people who yet do not believe, please forgive me. Our focus as Christ’s disciples should be on HIM. And so often, you’re right, we lose sight of what we were made to be.
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